Author Topic: Air - Liquid Oil Cooler  (Read 3815 times)

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Scuba2001

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« on: June 16, 2004, 11:26:31 AM »
Its gone to the crapper and has since died a horrible death.  My factory oil cooler is seeping coolant from the center casting joints, around the hose clamps, and the area up around the part where it goes into the block above the intake manifold.

Ive seen kits around that have the new adapter plate with all of the lines and cooler section.  Since I do not yet have a FMIC, the only other place where I can put this unit is in front of the grille.  Not something I really want to do yet.  I would be more comfortable placing it where the side mount cooler is located.

Suggestions on where to purchase a "kit" and where to mount this puppy would be greatly appreciated.  And, yes, this is something I dont want leaked out too much...

Steve

DenverPat

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2004, 12:22:30 PM »
Steve, I've been considering something like this.  AFter some research, I'm thinking I might just stick with the OEM unit.  I'm not sure why you wouldn't just stick with an OEM replacement.  What are your temps like?  Are you concerned they're too hot?  What kind of oil do you use?  My temps can reach 275 on the track with Mobil 1 15-50, but my tuner says I shouldn't worry about that.  I know the oil can handle it, but I am concerned about the temperature of other things.  I don't really know what to worry about, but when I hit 250 degrees I start to take it easy.  This doesn't really bother me too much, as I don't want to buy new tires every other month.  When I run so hard on the track that my oil temps get that hot, my tires are also so hot they start to wear extremely fast.
Whatever you do, keep in mind you should get your oil temps up fast when starting the car.  I think some guys on AW have put S4 oil coolers on their car, but I'm not sure.  I've saved a link with some info, so if you want it PM me.
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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2004, 12:22:30 PM »

Scuba2001

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2004, 02:27:45 PM »
Im changing it becuase I feel that the OE unit is CRAP.  The way that its designed is just asking for failure.  Ill see if I can get a picture of my cooler sometime soon.  Its so bad, its oozing out of the seam in the adapter part where the filter bolts onto.  Inferior design if you ask me.

I use either Mobile1 Syn or Castrol Syntec iirc, usually a 0w40 or 10w40.  I track the car, and with the heat around here its not something I want to coak up in the turbo, etc.

Dieselgeek.com uses the S4 cooler and has had good results with it.  I read this on Vortex.  Again, still an OE part that could fail where Im not willing to sacrifice.

A local buddy has a air cooler but has yet to install it.  Its a pretty nice setup and is really built nicely.  Ill have to ask where he got it because the adapter for the unit on the cooler is all one peice so its not a cheap seam like the OE one.  Id rather be safe then sorry with another leaky unit.

Steve

DenverPat

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2004, 02:38:16 PM »
Well, I'm still not really sure why you think the OEM cooler is crap.  I understand yours has come apart, but I've never heard of this happening before.  Is it possible it was hit/bumped by a mechanic some time that caused this?  Who knows....I just think it's odd since I've never heard anything like this before.
I think the engineers that have designed this cooler proably have good reasons for doing what they do.  Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you know waaay more about this stuff than I do, but I'm willing to bet they have some good reasons for designing it how they did.
As for worrying about your turbo in heat, you may want to try a heavier oil.  My owner's manual recommends 15-50 when it gets hot, as does my local tuner who is an experienced racer.
As for your friend with the aftermarket unit, does it run the coolant through it like the OEM piece does?  Again, I don't really know what I'm talking about here, but I remember some post about the 1.8T having an unusual oil cooler design.  I would just be sure to talk to some experts before messing with it instead of doing something that just seems right becuase it's a well-built piece.  Just my $.02.
"Of all the extreme sports I've ever participated in- windsurfing, kite boarding, wake boarding, tow-in surfing and snowboarding- skiing, for me, made everything else easy."
-Chuck Patterson

Scuba2001

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2004, 03:52:35 PM »
Thanks Pat, Ill see about running a thicker oil next time for those high heat situations.  "As for worrying about your turbo in heat"  here I thought you were talking about the turbo mating with another turbo... lol.

The cooler mu buddy has does not run the coolant through it, hence its an air to oil cooler, kinda like a basic intercooler or tranny cooler.  Ive posted this as well over on Vortex but it got locked, and has since been reopened, but no new action on it yet.

I also found some other threads on Vortex where the seperation has also taken place on the coolers.  VW kinda did a "silent" recall on them.  Coolers were failing due to slight internal cracking where the oil and coolant would mix.  One guy had the whole engine replaced along with hoses, coolant tank, etc replaced under warranty because of this.  Another guy had over $500 of repairs because the he also had cracks in the cooler, causing the fluids to mix.  It took the dealer 4-5 flushes to clear the system.


Ill keep ya posted.
Steve

Scuba2001

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2004, 03:58:05 PM »
Oh, forgot one thing.

I also read that the inner seals between the two halves of the cooler have been known to fail as wel, which is whats happened in my case.

Steve

DenverPat

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2004, 03:59:08 PM »
Quote from: "Scuba2001"
Thanks Pat, Ill see about running a thicker oil next time for those high heat situations.  "As for worrying about your turbo in heat"  here I thought you were talking about the turbo mating with another turbo... lol.
Ill keep ya posted.
Steve


"Turbo in heat" :lol:
Hopefully that thread will pick up again now that it's been unlocked.  I'll be intersted in seeing what people have to say.  Got a link to it?
Wow, I had no idea people were having them replaced.  I've been on AW a while now and never remember seeing something like this.  Very interesting, and a good thing to be aware of.
"Of all the extreme sports I've ever participated in- windsurfing, kite boarding, wake boarding, tow-in surfing and snowboarding- skiing, for me, made everything else easy."
-Chuck Patterson

DenverPat

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2004, 04:00:47 PM »
Quote from: "Scuba2001"
Oh, forgot one thing.

I also read that the inner seals between the two halves of the cooler have been known to fail as wel, which is whats happened in my case.

Steve

Steve, what is your engine code?
"Of all the extreme sports I've ever participated in- windsurfing, kite boarding, wake boarding, tow-in surfing and snowboarding- skiing, for me, made everything else easy."
-Chuck Patterson

Scuba2001

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2004, 04:50:56 PM »
1998 AEB w/ 106,3xx miles. 5spd manual.  Ive been the only one to change the oil in the car for the past few years now and am very careful to not "bump" the stuff that doesnt need a bump.

My post on 'tex
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1449877

Some other Passat failures to look at
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1285907
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1162980
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1015215

Enjoy the reading
Steve

DenverPat

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2004, 05:06:45 PM »
Good reading!  I'm certainly going to keep a close eye on mine.  So you think the 2.7T cooler is just as bad as the 1.8T cooler?
"Of all the extreme sports I've ever participated in- windsurfing, kite boarding, wake boarding, tow-in surfing and snowboarding- skiing, for me, made everything else easy."
-Chuck Patterson

Scuba2001

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2004, 05:08:21 PM »
Im really not sure, but I wouldnt put it past VAG to go skimpy on it like they have the Passat.  Ive posted over on AudiZine as well to see what they have done, and if they have had any failures.

Steve

Rusty

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2004, 02:04:59 PM »
FWIW in a week or so I'll be putting a SMOC on mine.  I'm installing an FMIC, and I've cannibalized the sandwich adapter, fittings, and (air) oil cooler from the Scirocco, to be installed in the SMIC location.  We'll find out on July 18th (track day) how much that helps peak temps.

Steve, I don't understand your hesitance to install in front of the radiator, unless you are just trying to avoid rework if/when you get a FMIC.

How 'bout an FMIC for $500?  There's a shop right here in Auroura, CO - Paragon Tuning - that sells an excellent FMIC for $400.  This is what Chas just installed, and what I'm installing next week.  Add:
$38 for 2" mandrel elbows from www.jcw.com
$28 for silicone coupling hose from www.hosetechniques.com
$28 for high-quality hose clamps from www.bakerprecision.com
and $15 for miscellaneous brackets and bolts
And you have a complete DIY FMIC kit for $509 plus shipping.

Having recently ordered all of the above, I have part numbers if you're interested.  Chas and I were lucky, especially me.  We got our IC's for an introductory sale price of $300, and I got the last one...
i]AEB Engines have better-flowing heads and a real throttle cable...[/i]

Rusty

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2004, 02:09:00 PM »
Oh, hey, Steve - if I have a successful SMOC install, you can have my old oil/water cooler, if that will help you in the interim.  It's in (apparently) perfect shape.  Planned install is June 24/25/26.
i]AEB Engines have better-flowing heads and a real throttle cable...[/i]

Scuba2001

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2004, 02:18:59 PM »
Keep me posted on that DIY FMIC.  Does it come with brackets at all?  I dont have access to a machine shop to cut anything for me or fab anything up.  Also, are those IC tubes ribbed on the ends so the hoses dont blow off?  That would be my only concern.  All of the FMIC's Ive seen lately are between 800-1200 which is a little touch to come by right now.

I want to prevent rework, which is why Im waiting it out as long as I can.

PN's for all of the stuff would be great so just lemme know.

Thanks
Steve

SweetVW

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2004, 04:53:50 PM »
Not to steal the thread for a minute but Rusty, thanks for the hook up on the FMIC tubes and web links. The tubes are ordered and should be here in a week to 10 days.

OK, you may now resume normal thread perusing.  :lol:

I can post all the info that I have collected when I get home tonight.
If it ain't broke, take it apart and fix it!

Chas

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2004, 01:31:11 AM »
Well, to add some more info to this interesting thread...

1) Boris' '99 AEB engine is also experiencing the same weeping leaks of coolant that Steve is having right now. His is a nasty mess of crystalized, pink stalatite globs on the lower end of his oil cooler.  :-(  :oops:
So these things do happen.

Also, Rusty first did this, but like always, if I see a good idea I jumpp on it. I have installed the Wix 3331 oil filter. This is a much larger oil filter from another VW product. Which one I'm not sure, but it fits right on our 1.8T engines without a hitch! The point of the larger filter is that it holds a lot more oil and there for increases the amount of oil the engine has to glow through it's ports. Meaning that the oil has a longer life and can cool better because the is simply more of it. Instead of 3.7 quarts of oil that the standard 1.8T holds, I now have about 4.4 quarts of oil flowing through my engine. And the dip stick reads that I am at a perfect level, not over filled at all. Simple idea, but it works. I bought 4 of these filters from rockauto.com a while back when they had them on sale for about $7 a filter. the same basic filter can also be had from anyy NAPA store. They call it the Big Kahuna filter. Rusty uses that one.

As for the FMIC that Rusty and I have, it truely is a great IC. The core measures 17" x 8" x 2" the over all length is 27" from end to end. It has 4 mounting bosses, two on the sides and two on the bottom. Rusty and I are only using the two side bosses. They come already drilled and tapped to accept 1/2" long 8mm bolts.

Steve if you are thinking about getting one of these FMIC's for your car, I can make you up a set of brackets to mount it to your bumper bar real cheap. This FMIC makes a huge improvment in the way the car feels. As any FMIC will, but this is a nice unit at a very reasonable price. The only other thing you'd have to do is drill and tap some holes in the bumper bar to mount the brackets to it. And you can get the tools to do that at any good hardware store. I like to use 1/4 - 20 bolts to mount the brackets to the bumper bar. For that you'd need a # 10 drill bit and a 1/4 - 20 tap and a hand set to turn the tap. It's actually very easy to do. Though you should do a test first to get the feel for it.   :)

Dave, I'm glad you found the links to the JCW pipes you needed. I knew the answer was out there.  8)  :P  

Good luck guys!  :-D
2003 Audi A6 2.7T
Some Sedans haul families,
this one hauls ASS!

SweetVW

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2004, 09:39:32 AM »
OK here are the links/info that Rusty helped me with:

Baker Precision hose clamps
Clamps that have rolled edges and stamped threads to preserve and secure the hose.

HoseTechniques Silicone Turbo Hose
Pick your color and length (2"-3") and 2"ID.

Part numbers used for tubing from JC Whitney:
PART NUMBER- ZX812928B $6.99
Item 45 Mandel-Bent Aluminized Tubing, (A/B)=7-1/2", (C)=4", ID=1-7/8", OD=2"

PART NUMBER- ZX812949Y $7.99
Item 90 Mandel-Bent Aluminized Tubing, (A/B)=8", (C)=4", ID=1-7/8", OD=2"

As for quanity of tubing parts, I had two different numbers from Chas and Rusty.  So considering the low cost of each tube, I went with 4- 45deg. and 2- 90deg. tubes.  I am sure I will have left over parts, but better to be sure that sorry.

I am also having to work with comming up with a solution for the boost pressure sensor that sits between the OEM intercooler and the throttle.  I also thought that I may have an issue with what I think is my thermometer that sits just about where the FMIC core is going to go.  I will have to look into that some more.

OK, honest, no more hijacking of this thread.
If it ain't broke, take it apart and fix it!

Scuba2001

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2004, 11:25:18 AM »
Aight, so the IC stuff Ill leave for a PM or another thread.

As for the cooler stuff... I have seen some people say that just the oil filter sometimes goes for $14.  With the cost of the filter and another qt of oil, how long would it take to really save money with buying that and just getting an external oil cooler?  If the filter goes for say, 14 and another qt of oil goes for say, $3.50, whats the cost savings?  The oil cooler with the mocal thermostat adapter is about $180.  it would take 10 oil changes to save and would basicly pay for the oil cooler itself.  If you drive alot, have high miles, etc I think that it would be more cost effective to just buy an oil cooler unit instead of the larger filter.

Anyway, its cooler to say you fabbed up your own oil cooler then just installing a larger filter and more oil.  There is hardly any pressure drop accross the system with an oil cooler, and you still have slightly added oil capacity.

Steve

Rusty

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« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2004, 02:13:51 PM »
Well, I'll wind up with a cooler AND a big oil filter!  :)
i]AEB Engines have better-flowing heads and a real throttle cable...[/i]

Chas

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2004, 03:23:42 AM »
Quote from: "Rusty"
Well, I'll wind up with a cooler AND a big oil filter!  :)


You go BOY!!! 8-)  8)  :)
2003 Audi A6 2.7T
Some Sedans haul families,
this one hauls ASS!

Chas

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2004, 03:31:42 AM »
Quote from: "StarlightB5"
I also thought that I may have an issue with what I think is my thermometer that sits just about where the FMIC core is going to go.  I will have to look into that some more.

OK, honest, no more hijacking of this thread.


I believe the part you're looking at Dave is your external temp sensor. And yes, that will have to find a new home. I have mine mounted further over to the driver's side out of the way. Also, that is a better place for it. There it can't be affected by the heat coming off of the IC core or the heat from the radiator. I have seen more acurate readings since moving mine over there. I can show you a cool trick we did on Pat's A4 when we installed his FMIC. It looks really neat and is nicely out of the way.

Also, the cooling tube for the power steering fluid needs some work. Pat and I came up with a nice sollution that will work for the Passat as well. And it will look nicer than on the A4.  :P
2003 Audi A6 2.7T
Some Sedans haul families,
this one hauls ASS!

Scuba2001

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #21 on: June 20, 2004, 07:52:17 PM »
I decided to get some pictures of the blown cooler.  Check these out below.







Im going to see where else I can possibly get a new external cooler with all hoses, lines, clamps, etc and see about getting this all swapped out.  Ill keep everyone posted once I get it all installed.



Btw, I think I am going to contact Eurosport and make sure that this setup will work for my engine and everything.

Steve

Chas

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2004, 03:52:44 PM »
So Steve, if you don't have a FMIC, where will that new heat sink live?
2003 Audi A6 2.7T
Some Sedans haul families,
this one hauls ASS!

Scuba2001

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Air - Liquid Oil Cooler
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2004, 04:04:42 PM »
Well, we shall see.  Ill have to get it and then fiddle around with it to see where it will fit best.