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DenverPat

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« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2004, 09:33:01 PM »
Chas has some good points.  Driving style, warm-up, cool-down and oil type all add into the equation.  Keep in mind Chas knows more than I do when it comes to this, but I'd be willing to bet there are some differences in chips when it comes to the air/fuel ratio.  I've heard some run richer than others.  Don't know if that's true, but it's just what I've heard.  Anyway, I think it is likely that some tuners create more power by running their cars closer to stoich at the risk of getting the turbo too hot.  Some more conservative programs will run the car a little richer, creating less power, but keeping the turbo cooler, which in turn increases longevity.  I doubt there's a huge difference between chips, but maybe enough to make a difference.  Chas, your thoughts?
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Chas

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« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2004, 05:39:04 AM »
Quote from: "Denver Pat"
Anyway, I think it is likely that some tuners create more power by running their cars closer to stoich at the risk of getting the turbo too hot.  Some more conservative programs will run the car a little richer, creating less power, but keeping the turbo cooler, which in turn increases longevity.


Well the fact of the matter is that the A/F mixture has bigger effect on the internals of the engine before it affects the turbo. A/F mix affects the combustion chamber temps first. The turbo sees super heated exhaust gases that in turn spin the hot side wheels and eventually that will have some detrimental factor on the turbo. But before the turbo melts down in a situation like that, I would think the engine (valves and piston heads) will be a melted glop of crap.

And you know it wouldn't be benificial to any chip tuner to run a street car that close to melt down all the time. Eventually their reputation would catch up to them. But I do think that some like to make as much HP as possible, with in reason. Meaning that they wouldn't ever tune a chip that is sold to the general public that is so highly strung as to melt the engine down after a few hard runs. We aren't driving purpose built race cars here. I think the opposite is true. There is a big margine for error left in by all the tuners. Some leave more in, some don't.

So it still comes down to driving habits and maintanence. If you're going to constantly have your foot into your throttle and give the car no chance to cool down, then sure, the KKK turbos aren't going to last. Remember, they are still only running a 4mm, oil coated shaft to spin all those RPMs and pump all that air. Fresh, clean oil is the best thing you can do for your 1.8T.  8)

Look at the guys that tune high HP Hondas, they never use a KKK turbo. It's always a Garret ball bearing unit or something else of simular quality.  :roll:
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« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2004, 05:39:04 AM »

Kelly

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« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2004, 07:19:52 PM »
Quote from: "Denver Pat"
Chas has some good points.  Driving style, warm-up, cool-down and oil type all add into the equation.  Keep in mind Chas knows more than I do when it comes to this, but I'd be willing to bet there are some differences in chips when it comes to the air/fuel ratio.  I've heard some run richer than others.  Don't know if that's true, but it's just what I've heard.  Anyway, I think it is likely that some tuners create more power by running their cars closer to stoich at the risk of getting the turbo too hot.  Some more conservative programs will run the car a little richer, creating less power, but keeping the turbo cooler, which in turn increases longevity.  I doubt there's a huge difference between chips, but maybe enough to make a difference.  Chas, your thoughts?



i agree with this.
this is in some way what i have a problem with.
there is one program for every car...
to me (comin from the honda world) this is unacceptable. every car is different, every motor is diiferent.
i could understand a good "basemap" and the you can tune it to where you like it (whether you want to push the limits or just leave it)
but $500 for a "generic" map (to me) is crazy, becuase even then you have to spend another ~$350 to tune it to where you want it.

i dont know maybe the popularity of honda has led me to become spoiled..


anyway, im still looking at chipping my b5, but any chip that goes in there WILL be tunable, as i will be leaving altitude probaly next year..

thanks to everyone that has helped.
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jayryan

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« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2004, 07:51:39 PM »
Kelly, you really should talk to Rusty on all this. I think you guys would both have alot to discuss regarding this and he has probably the most complete handle and understanding of the 1.8T engine than anybody I know.

He could shed HUGE light on not so much chipping as tuning the engine. He likes much more tunability than just a chip will provide. Anyway, PM and see what he says...I don't know what his holiday schedule is, but he pops in fairly regularly.
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Kelly

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« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2004, 12:06:03 AM »
cool thanks.
although i dont know everything about tuning, i am learning alot from a buddy.
he went to EFI-101, its a tuning class put on buy Ben Strader.
he tuned his own car (the white car in the video) and hes is teaching me how to une my honda :)
ill pm him and see what he says.
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RobD

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« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2004, 11:05:24 AM »
Quote from: "jayryan"
Kelly, you really should talk to Rusty on all this. I think you guys would both have alot to discuss regarding this and he has probably the most complete handle and understanding of the 1.8T engine than anybody I know.

He could shed HUGE light on not so much chipping as tuning the engine. He likes much more tunability than just a chip will provide. Anyway, PM and see what he says...I don't know what his holiday schedule is, but he pops in fairly regularly.


JR - that's just what i was thinking as I read this post.  The more i read I thought, " Kelley should be in discussions with Rusty."  

Rusty's car is not shipped but runs some strong numbers due to his own tuning of the air/fuel.  He's done a number of things to get the same results as chipping.  Rusty is in Alb NM and is a great guy.  Hopefully he can give you a hand at tuning your ride.

On a side note.  I have been running the APR program for over a year and have not had any problems with the chip.  I have not heard about many people having problems with APR but I don't frequent many different forums.  I change my oil often and make sure I give it a chance to properly cool after "getting into it."

Good luck with your search Kelley.

Rob

jayryan

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« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2004, 12:19:23 PM »
Kelly, I should also mention that Rusty is going to be working on timing tuning now that he has is A/F control tuning down. Trust me, it's cool. It's beyond my abilities for the most part but VERY cool.
His numbers tuned and unchipped are very close to running an 0.8bar chip.

I know what everyone says, but I plan on running the Neuspeed 1.0bar/5bar FPR setup this spring. I've not heard any complaints from those that have it. And if ithey got rid of it, it was to get a more aggresive program.
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Kelly

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« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2004, 05:14:10 PM »
i pm'd him,
hopefully he will be able to help me out.

thanks for everyones help.
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Kelly

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« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2005, 02:54:41 PM »
rusty can you look though some of this and see if you would like to add anything.
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Rusty

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« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2005, 04:27:38 PM »
Quote from: "jayryan"
...His numbers tuned and unchipped are very close to running an 0.8bar chip...

Um, excuuuuusssse me, but I'm putting up numbers comparable to a 1.0 bar chip, since, after all, I am running 1.0 bar...

I have some comments and Kelly and I are already PM'ing.  But I gotta go to lunch right now.

One thing I can say right off the bat is that your concern over alititude tuning is unfounded.  These cars compensate for altitude all by themselves.  Still haven't figured out totally what the baro pressure programming does, but I suspect it modifies lambda regulation and perhaps the load tables.  It definitely affects timing, but I do not know if it affects it directly, or if the timing changes are an indirect effect of the lamda reg and load tables.

I've got a sh*tload of info over on ClubB5, but all the links are broken and there's no easy fix because the thread numbers have changed.  Grrr...
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jayryan

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« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2005, 04:34:14 PM »
Quote from: "Rusty"
Quote from: "jayryan"
...His numbers tuned and unchipped are very close to running an 0.8bar chip...

Um, excuuuuusssse me, but I'm putting up numbers comparable to a 1.0 bar chip, since, after all, I am running 1.0 bar...


 :D As I said..very close...you just happen to be above 0.8bar that's all..it's within 0.2bar... :wink:

I'm just trying to help out here... :roll:
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Rusty

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« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2005, 07:24:54 PM »
hee-hee!

Yeah, and what's amazing is how easy the first 0.8 bar was, and how damn hard that last 0.2 has been.

Oh yeah, and another thing about altitude.  I have had several stages of tune here at 5300-5800 ft.  I take many road trips to sea level.  At each stage of tune, the car ran like a bat-out-o-hell at sea level.
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kraut-sled

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« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2005, 09:15:17 PM »
Quote from: "Rusty"
the car ran like a bat-out-o-hell at sea level.


I can attest to this.  Man did we have fun in the cannyon outside Gilroy, CA (The Garlic Capital of the world) :D  :D
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Rusty

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« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2005, 03:27:30 PM »
Quote from: "kraut-sled"
I can attest to this.  Man did we have fun in the cannyon outside Gilroy, CA (The Garlic Capital of the world) :D  :D

Oh, that was fun!  Boy, was it fragrant...
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Rusty

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« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2005, 03:34:20 PM »
I've started PM'ing Kelly about this stuff, but I think I'll move the discussion here for more input and to edumecate more people:

Quote from: "Kelly"
Quote from: "Rusty"
What kind of car do you have?  DBW is very different (and easier) approach than DBC.


im not sure of all the codes yet, but i have a 2001 b5 (not b5.5) 1.8t 5speed, no 4 motion.

hopefully that is the info you need, if not ill try to get you a better answer.
thanks
kelly

So that means you should have an AUG or ATW engine code, I think.

The engine code is stamped on a boss at the driver's side front of the cylinder head, peeking out from the valve cover.  Right there where the camshaft position sensor is plugged in.

The caveat here is that I have an AEB engine, so my firsthand experience is limited to that engine.  But in tuning the AEB, I've come across other info that I can share with you, just remember this is second-hand:

Step 1) You need a VAG-COM (or equivalent) to monitor fuel trims, knock retard, fuel injector duty cycle, and O2 sensor voltages to make sure you don't melt your engine.

Step 2) Since you don't have an AEB (the earliest engine code), you're in pretty good shape to get some more power, simply, without major mods.  The AEB's had tiny injectors (210cc) and a duty cycle limit of 16.32 msec, so fuel was a big problem.  The later engines have 270cc injectors and a duty cycle limit of 25 msec IIRC.  So right off the bat, you can buy a $35 mechanical boost controller, hook it in-line with your N75 valve, and raise the boost to probably 12 lbs without any fueling or limp issues.  I recommend the Dawes MBC (www.dawesdevices.com) because its internal components are lightweight leading to faster reaction times.  But the Boostvalve (www.boostvalve.com) is hellaciously convenient because it has an adjustment knob.

Going beyond this, the engine code needs to be known.  Need especially to know if you have a MAP sensor, but I imagine that you do.  Assuming you do:

Step 3) IIRC you can get up to 15 lbs boost before you hit any kind of overboost/limp mode. Past 12 lbs, increase it by one psi, drive and monitor, increase again, etc.  I've found that it's best to drive the car normally for about three days between changes.  Seems like that's how long it takes for the ECU (fuel and timing trims, etc) to fully adapt. Once you start hitting limp mode, you need a diode on the MAP sensor to prevent limp mode due to sensed overboost.  You'll still get proper fuel because of MAF (IIRC).  Consult the 1.8t forum on Vortex for proper diode to use.

Step 4) With the MAP sensor clamped, you can run ridiculously high boost, but with higher boost you'll need larger injectors and a larger MAF sensor housing to go along with them.  There are some guys on Vortex running 20-25 lbs boost, with stock ECU, a boost controller, a clamped MAP sensor, larger injectors, and larger MAF.  Oh yeah, and a larger turbo.  The K03 on our passats is only good to about 15-17 lbs, and even then it's waaay out of its efficiency range.  In cold weather it's OK, but in hot weather at our altitude the K03 sucks.  IMO, FMIC is required with the K03 above 12-13 lbs boost.  My car ran great on 12 lbs boost on the hottest (105-110) summer days.  But when I went to 15 lbs it just died in the heat due to timing retard.

BTW the 1.8T tech forum on Vortex is a great resource for tinkering with these engines, if you have the patience to slog through all the immature egomaniacal crap.  I ran out of patience...

That's your tuning path in a nutshell.  Know your engine code before we go further.

BTW, note that this isn't really "tuning" in the sense of adjusting things in your ECU for what you want.  Rather, it's the fine art of taking everything the stock ECU will give you.  Just "raising the boost" isn't optimal, but then as you are so aware, a chip isn't optimal either.  I'd rather pay $35 for non-optimal than $350-$500.
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Rusty

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« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2005, 04:31:02 PM »
Quote from: "Kelly"
...i am looking for a quick daily driver.
i am not tryin to push the envelope, my fast car will remain my civic for now.
what your talking about kinda sounds familiar in the honda world we call it "the hack".
ill look at my head to see which code i got.
ill read over your info a few more times and look around on the vortex. hopefully i will be able to understand it.

approx. how much would everything cost?
or how much hp/tq can i expect?
would it be more cost efficient for me to just chip my ecu?
thanks again.
kelly

Well, if you aren't trying to push the envelope, then I think the $35 boost controller (plus a few bucks for silicone hose) is your ticket.  Again, need engine code (hence injector size), but I am nine-nines certain that you can run 12 lbs/0.8 bar boost no problem no addtional mods or cost.  Compare to the 0.8-bar Neuspeed chip @$200.  HP/TQ?  Not sure, but very similar to the Neuspeed 0.8-bar chip.  This will give you a very quick daily driver.  If I didn't track my car and have to deal with C5 Vettes on the straights (they slow me down in the corners but I can't pass them on the straights), I would have stopped at 12 lbs - the car really ran great for all normal driving, and I easily kept up with 1-bar chipped cars on our GTG drives.

What the chip(s) would give you extra is this:
1) Raising the rev limiter to 7000+
2) Removal of the 130 mph top-speed governor
3) Timing changes

My opinions:
1) I'll keep the rev limit at factory.  I plan on 300,000 miles out of this engine.  I HAVE to get that many to make it worth all the money I've put into it LOL...
2) I don't have the skill necessary to drive a car faster than 90-100, much less 130...
3) The factory timing algorithm is going to advance the timing as far as possible during steady-state cruise anyway.  The only possible benefit from timing adustments is:
3a) Advance timing during high-load, low-boost for quicker off-the-line acceleration - but I've heard too many chipped cars ping, they aren't getting any benefit because this triggers knock retard
3b) Retard timing to allow higher boost levels - this is somewhat self-defeating, no?  This gets into the AEB fuel limitations.  Damn, I could write a book...
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jayryan

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« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2005, 05:04:38 PM »
Rusty, you should write a book ;)

I keep sending this stuff to Winston to throw in the Tech forum :P

FYI: $25 for the Dawes Basic MBC 8O
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