Author Topic: Swaybars and handling.  (Read 4579 times)

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Spicoli

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« on: February 23, 2005, 07:20:36 AM »
First off, I tried posting this in the suspension section, but only Mods can start a new topic in there... so I put it here.

So someone on here asked me what I think of my suspension set up.
I have the following:
Autotech front swaybar (hollow 25mm) and adjustable mounts (set to the stiff setting)
Autotech front upper & lower stress bar (I really don't think these do much, but look good)
VW racing upper strut mount bushing
Autotech rear swaybar (hollow 28mm) set to the stiffest setting
Polyurethane control arm bushings
Polyurethane rear spring perches (don't think does much either, but like the bars can't hurt)

I am running Bilstein PSS9s right now and I have them set too low, so they are bouncing and not as smooth as they are 1" higher.  I have tracked my car at both settings and my lower setting slowed me up by almost 2 seconds (but the track could have been slower on that day, it was a colder day).  I have also run this suspension on softer sport springs with sach shocks.

My car pushed a bit with all suspension set ups I have run.  But one of the big things swaybars do is stop body role.  Body role is pretty big in controlling a car through a corner and making it smooth.  If you car roles a lot you have to oversteer for a bit and when it settles then you have to steer normally... this isn't good.  Body role is also reduced by lowering your car (lower is better (within reason) despite what Shine says - he has a point, but isn't looking at the big picture, only one small part of it).  Personally I like the front set up.  I have an engine mount by VF-Engineering which made a big difference as well.  I have 2 more now, but have not installed them yet.  My car goes so quick into the corner it is great.  I don't think the autotech rear sway bar is stiff enough for their front sway bar.  I am going to be getting a nuespeed rear 28mm swaybar soon.

I have set the front swaybar to the softer setting, but then the body roles more and doesn't really help.  So I like the stiffer setting.  My car handles beautifully (maybe perfect for a 3000lb car) in high speed corners (like 60+mph), but in the slower corners, like at second creek, I feel it doesn't flip throw the corners quick enough (pushing).  I am pretty sure that the nuespeed bar will fix my desires.

One thing I need to add, is I have a Quaife.  And this is the biggest performance gain I have ever done.   This thing makes my car just pull itself through the corner.  With a stiffer swaybar I am thinking I will get the rear end around better (brake trailing) so I can carry a little more speed through the corner.  My car pushed tons before I had the quaife and the quaife made as big of a difference as the swaybars did (when on the gas, does you diddlely-squat when braking).  Quaife is an amazing thing, completely changed the way my car handles/drives, but you have to be on the gas for it to work.

Now I have lost focus on this because I got in an arguement on vwvortex, which just goes to prove that the mk4 forum really is lame.  Why did I even bother checking it (because it is late and I didn't want to go to bed yet  :(  bad choice).   If I left something out or have questions, post and I will be glad to share.  I should also be at the second creek on march 5th and may 28th.  I am not sure if I will be driving my mk4 or my spec miata, but I will probably end up driving mk4 a little.


And I shoudl add, this all works well for my driving style, which is different than most I see at the track.  So I can't say you'll get the same experience.
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KevB

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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2005, 04:50:59 PM »
Wow, you've got a lot of suspension done.  
You might want to check out the March issue of Eurotuner, they have an article on a GTI with a full H-Sport suspension, along with testing of that suspension.  The GTI actually did the best lap with a 27mm front bar at it's hard setting and it's smaller 28mm rear bar (it's big bar is 32mm) at it's soft setting.
It seems the common concensus is not to go to a bigger front bar, but the more research I do it seems that a bigger front bar is the way to go.  
Hopefully you've treid this, but stiffen up the rear shocks and that'll help you rotate better.
Also get your car corner weighted, all the guys here will tell you what a difference it'll make.
It looks like you have all the pieces it's just getting them to work together.

Good luck,
Kevin
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Swaybars and handling.
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2005, 04:50:59 PM »

92UrS4

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« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2005, 05:31:39 PM »
Thanks for posting this, as an FYI, those mod only forums are for technical posts, namely how-to's and so forth.

If you have time, please use the link ont eh left for reviews and write up a couple reviews on the products youlve used.

The review section can be a great resource for those looking for certain products or services.

I only ask this because of the n00b factor.  That being, after awhile some folks don't respond to new members posting about certain setups and so forth.  this way they "should" be able to find the information without someone having to post their response ininiftymillion times.

DenverPat

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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2005, 07:35:31 PM »
KevB and Spicoli, great info!  Thanks for sharing this.  It will certainly help those considering altering their Golf suspension.
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Spicoli

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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2005, 09:40:41 PM »
I have tried my car with and with out the front sway bar, but always with the rear.  I have tried different things here and there to make or adjust the front to make it softer/stiffer.  I have gone too stiff with the front and gone to soft on the rear.  For how my car is now, with the quaife which completely changes the handling of the golf FWD, I just need a little stiffer rear and I am good to go.


The hard part I have with those studies is how acurate they are.  If the track warms up more, cleaner (less dirt, etc on it), tires warms, air cooler, etc the car will stick better and have more power... there for have better times.  Plus I question how use to the car the drive is and also does he know the track.  I ahven't read the article, but looked online.  They did it in one day from the sounds of it, and if they did times in the morning the track could have been cold and dirty, while if they did in later in the day it would be quicker track conditions.  Was the car lighter from having less gas in it?

And don't get me wrong, I am not saying the information is wrong.  I am just bringing up the arguments against their study.  My stuff is just trial and error, and I go off of feel.  I have very little data to support what I think.  2 track days does not cut it.  I have had a lot of track time in other cars, but in mine not a lot.  I go up canyons and generally play around a lot, but I only have how it feels to me and my driving style.  I am actually going to the store now to buy that article and read it.  I am curious what ride height the car was.  THe lower you go, the more camper you get in the rear, which VW designed to help people stay in control... which means it isn't as good for track because it will help enduce understeer so you don't flip around to be safer, etc, etc.
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Spicoli

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« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2005, 10:52:23 PM »
Okay, I am not saying their information is incorrect, but their conclusions are hog-wash.  Here is why, their data:  (They had coilovers that have 18 clicks of adjustment in the front and 24 clicks in the rear.  They also had swaybars that are adjustable)

Set-up :::::::::::::: time :::::::::::::::: settings ::::::::::::::

Stock------------------81.83---------------- stock

H-Sport----------------77.34-----------------F: 5 clicks from full hard, R: 6 clicks
Baseline--------------------------------------F: 27mm swaybar, hard setting,  R: 28mm swaybar, soft

2nd--------------------77.67-----------------F: full hard, R: 6 clicks from full hard
Configuration--------------------------------F: 27mm, hard, R: 28mm soft


3rd--------------------76.53-----------------F: 5 clicks, R: 6 clicks
configuration--------------------------------F: 27mm, hard R: 28mm soft

4th--------------------76.22-----------------F: 5 clicks, R: full hard
configuration--------------------------------F: 27mm hard, R: 28mm


why do I call this hog wash, is all we know is at the time they did the last test session (later in the day, track will be warmer... photos show a sunny day) is that with that swaybar configuration AND shock settings, they pulled a quicker time.  Did the driver just have one great run? etc.

My biggest beef with this data is they are testing shock stiffness and swaybar stiffness at the same time.  When you want to know how 1 thing affects the situation (here the car), you test one at a time.  and add the second variable, then retest the first to make sure this haven't changed.

Because of them testing 2 things at the same time, I don't think you can say a softer rear swaybar is quicker.  It might be, but not from this test these guys did.  Plus I have done a lot more controlled testing than they have with my set up and suspension.

I have Bilstein PSS9s, which have 9 settings of adjustment.  I can tell you without changing my swaybar configuration that at it's stiffest setting (1)  the car is rigid.  and if I have the rear at 1 and the front at 6 the rear end of my car will flip around a corner like you wouldn't believe.  So much so it actually is slower.  On daily driving, I have it set to 6 and 6.  At the track I do turn it up in the rear to 8.  So I run front at 6 and rear at 9.  And that makes a much bigger difference than changing my swaybar stiffness (which has 3 settings - I run it on stiffest).  (I should add, that it is difficult to accurately adjust my fronts without taking off the wheels and jacking up the front of the car.  So for the track it isn't worth it to adjust the fronts.  For the PPIR track (where I did a lot of fiddling with the coilovers) I found at that bumpy of a course, 6 and 8 were good.  But smoother courses, 9 and 9 might be better.  At PPIR it is bumpy, so if the suspension is too stiff, the wheels don't stay on the ground as well and therefor slower setup.  So what I am also saying, is that each track or conditions will change what set up you need as well.
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KevB

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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2005, 01:15:55 PM »
It would have been nice if they only changed one thing per run.  It complicates things when you change more, because you never really know what made it quicker, or slower.  
They did test only one variable between the 3rd and 4th run, they stiffened up the rear shocks, but didn't change the rear bar and picked up a little time.  It would have been nice if the could have used the same shock/strut settings and either changed the stiffness on the bar, or went back to the 32mm one they started with.
I like reading all the different articles on suspension, even though I can't seem to find too many that give anything better than a writer's opinion.
Right now my car is stock and I'm trying to figure out what combonation of parts I should look into.
If you're at the track day in May I'd like to ride in your car to see how it handles and help time you around the track if you want to make changes at the track and see what kind of difference it made.  
Also what's your driving style, and how's it so different from others you see?

Kevin
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Spicoli

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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2005, 12:09:33 AM »
Yeah, I will definately be there in May, but that is long time to go without swaybars  :D   I am 95% sure I will be at 2nd creek next weekend (march 5th?).  If you're going, SCR Performance is doing a track day.  Changing the stiffness of the rear swaybar (on mine) really only seems to change the body role.  I could show you how much of a change stiffening up the rear shocks does too, you wouldn't believe how huge of a change that is... comparitively.


IMO, I really like the Nuespeed 25mm front and 28mm rear set up... good mounting and stiff... for the front I want to stick with the autotech bar because it is light  and stiff enough... seems like the nuespeed's are stiffer both front and rear
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34k

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« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2005, 03:13:22 PM »
Interesting, so just your opinion (i know you can't make be positive considering you know nothing about my driving and I'm running a bit of a different set-up) would you recommend that I put my Neuspeed 25mm front sway on my GTI? -It's been sitting under my bed for almost a year now...

Eibach Sportline Springs (lowered 1.8")
Koni Yellow Adjustable shocks - 1/4 turn from full stiff in front
28mm Neuspeed Rear Sway (stiffest setting)

I find by reducing the stiffness of the front shocks a bit on the track, I can get the car to handle fairly neutrally. I seems to me that since the car is STILL pushing, with this set up, stiffening the front is only going to exasperate that problem.  I understand that since I'm lowered that my camber is incorrect and running a stiffer sway bar will help counter this problem, but I don't want to try to solve a modest camber problem with a whole lot of understeer.

I guess by typing all this out I'm kind of answering my own question. I'm just going to have to try it and find out. BUT I would still be curious about your recommendation.
Andrew

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coveredbytheblood

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« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2005, 03:22:39 PM »
There you guys go talking like smart people again.  What is pushing?  Remeber I am a little slowww.
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DenverPat

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« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2005, 03:24:10 PM »
Push = plow = understeer
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coveredbytheblood

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« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2005, 03:26:16 PM »
Oooo.  That sounds bad.  I think my car is doing that.  Probably because my suspension still need tweaking.  What was it you said andy, my car looks lilke a dog with worms?
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DenverPat

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« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2005, 03:28:23 PM »
Most cars push.  They're set up like that from the factory.  In order for you to get a car not to push, you have to change things.  Usually it's a little more difficult to get a FWD car not to push, especially early in the turn.
"Of all the extreme sports I've ever participated in- windsurfing, kite boarding, wake boarding, tow-in surfing and snowboarding- skiing, for me, made everything else easy."
-Chuck Patterson

34k

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« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2005, 03:36:43 PM »
Quote from: "coveredbytheblood"
Oooo.  That sounds bad.  I think my car is doing that.  Probably because my suspension still need tweaking.  What was it you said andy, my car looks lilke a dog with worms?

:D That's more to do with your "negative rake" where your car is dragging its butt across the pavement *ahem* like a dog with worms. Let me appologize for that again... not right  ;)

Your car is almost definately understeering(pushing) right now. Once we get the suspension sorted and that rear sway bar on full stiff ;) you can start tweaking your coil overs adjusting the shocks until you find your happy place. Then, maybe a front sway bar upgrade  :?:  or whatever else you need until you are happy with the car. As far as your tyres, the ES 100s should treat you very well -Pat is a fan I believe.
Andrew

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gragravar

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« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2005, 03:37:28 PM »
BTW, the best reference I have ever read on car handling, as well as on proper driving techniques is Sports Car and Competion Driving by Paul Frere:



pick up a copy and give it a read.  It will give you an excellent idea of what your car is doing in the corners, as well as what you should be doing in them.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=O9t1CPsZRO&isbn=0837602025&itm=1
Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves.  ~Albert Einstein

coveredbytheblood

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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2005, 03:46:38 PM »
Quote from: "34k"
Quote from: "coveredbytheblood"
Oooo.  That sounds bad.  I think my car is doing that.  Probably because my suspension still need tweaking.  What was it you said andy, my car looks lilke a dog with worms?

:D That's more to do with your "negative rake" where your car is dragging its butt across the pavement *ahem* like a dog with worms. Let me appologize for that again... not right  ;)

Your car is almost definately understeering(pushing) right now. Once we get the suspension sorted and that rear sway bar on full stiff ;) you can start tweaking your coil overs adjusting the shocks until you find your happy place. Then, maybe a front sway bar upgrade  :?:  or whatever else you need until you are happy with the car. As far as your tyres, the ES 100s should treat you very well -Pat is a fan I believe.


LMBO!!
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DenverPat

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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2005, 03:48:10 PM »
Yes, I love the ES100s.  I don't mind the noise and harsh ride.  I will sacrifice those for excellent responsiveness, great grip and low cost.
Andrew, have you considered having your coilovers set up by a pro?  You might have better results having the car corner-weighted, then adjusting with damping and maybe anti-roll bars after that.
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coveredbytheblood

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« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2005, 03:58:13 PM »
Quote from: "Denver Pat"
Yes, I love the ES100s.  I don't mind the noise and harsh ride.  I will sacrifice those for excellent responsiveness, great grip and low cost.
Andrew, have you considered having your coilovers set up by a pro?  You might have better results having the car corner-weighted, then adjusting with damping and maybe anti-roll bars after that.


I have thought about it.  Dont know if its necessary or cost efficient.  I would however like someone to set up my shocks and stuff... That would be cool.  

Here is something for a little fun on this thread.
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=badcorner.wmv
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DenverPat

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« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2005, 04:07:31 PM »
I don't know a whole lot about corner balancing, but it seems to me to get the most out of the products you already purchased, that would be the way to go.  Bring it to 3R Racing and have them set it up for you.  They can corner balance, align and set up the damping for you so the car handles the best it can with things you've ALREADY purchased.  If you still don't think it's good, you could add a bar or something.
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34k

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« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2005, 04:20:12 PM »
Quote from: "coveredbytheblood"
Quote from: "Denver Pat"
Andrew, have you considered having your coilovers set up by a pro?  You might have better results having the car corner-weighted, then adjusting with damping and maybe anti-roll bars after that.

I have thought about it.  Dont know if its necessary or cost efficient.  I would however like someone to set up my shocks and stuff... That would be cool.

So tell me what the difference is between having a pro set up your coilovers and having someone set up your shocks and stuff?  :twisted:

Listen to the man, this is great advice! It's worth it to at LEAST check out the cost.
Andrew

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DenverPat

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« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2005, 04:30:55 PM »
Quote from: "34k"
So tell me what the difference is between having a pro set up your coilovers and having someone set up your shocks and stuff?  :twisted:


Well, with my suspension the only ajustment is height.  It's not infinately adjustable like coilovers.  I have a few perches, all grooved at the same height on each shock body.  I just set them on the same height and it's done.  Depending on which coilovers one has, you can adjust height (infinately), rebound and compression.  Spring rates also are changeble, but that requires more hardware.  All of these factors and how they relate to each other determine how the car handles.
34K, I guess your suspension is more adjustable than mine since you have adjustable shocks (only damping if I remember right).  You are somewhere between me and coilovers regarding adjustablility.  The more variables (adjustability) there are, the greater chance it's not set up right.  However, this same adjustability increases potiential performance greatly, which is why one pays a premium for coilovers.  I say get the most out of what you pay for by having a pro do it for you.
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34k

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« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2005, 04:47:50 PM »
I'm sorry Pat, I was being kinda mean again. You were recomending that a pro should set up his coils and he wasn't sure about that, but he was saying he'd like someone to set up his shocks and stuff.

-Just sounded like EXACTLY the same thing to me :)

Yes my Konis are dampening adjustable at the front which has helped a lot, but i do occationally pine for the fine tuning coilovers give you. Not enough to deal with pulling and replacing my front struts again though ;)
Andrew

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DenverPat

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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2005, 04:49:33 PM »
Doh!  I should have read his post more closely.  I am so smart.  s-m-r-t.
"Of all the extreme sports I've ever participated in- windsurfing, kite boarding, wake boarding, tow-in surfing and snowboarding- skiing, for me, made everything else easy."
-Chuck Patterson

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« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2005, 04:56:05 PM »
Andy good point.  Thanks for making me eat my loose words.  HA, ha.  Thanks for the advice Pat.  Sounds like a great idea.
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Spicoli

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« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2005, 02:53:26 AM »
Quote from: "coveredbytheblood"
There you guys go talking like smart people again.  What is pushing?  Remeber I am a little slowww.


But your car says GO?!



as far as the sway bar, I would put it on, try it, if you don't like it, pull it off.  I would start with it on the softest setting (if adjustable).  But if you want your car to stop understeering, you need a quaife.  If you aren't going to be at 2nd creek march 5th, and you ahve any free time, any night, let me know I will take you around and show you how much a quaife helps your car... understeer when you are on the gas rarely happens.



I want to add something about corner balancing.  I have done this on my miata and helped my father with his lotus elan.  He actually owns a set.  It is a street car, you can corner balance and get the information, but what are you going to do with it?  are you going to add weights to the light corners and take weight away from the heavy ones?  are you going to change spring stiffness to change the weight in the corner (too heavy, use lighter spring).  THis is a great thing to do and so many people over look this in the amature racing series(plural).  BTW, I am bad speller.  

I would say, don't worry about corner balancing, but alignment is great.  Joel at RS motorsports knows a great guy for doing alignment, 3R is good too... If you go, tell Randy that Jacks Nick Ham's son says hi.
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« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2005, 11:20:54 PM »
Spicoli,

I'm moving on the 5th, so I won't be able to make it to the track day, but it would be awesome of you to show me how much of a difference tuning the rear sway and shocks would do.

Thanks,
Kevin
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« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2005, 06:46:39 PM »
I might be able to make it out on the 5th, but I won't be driving as I won't have my new summer rubber or brakes sorted by then.

I will DEFINATELY be at our NGTG track day in May and if possible would like to take a ride with you and have you ride with me for comparison.

Aside from that, I'm free pretty much every night and would love to take a look or go for a ride and check out the Quaife. I've been planning on installing one when I look at doing some of the more serious power upgrades since it won't be an option at that point, but a necessity.

I'll send a PM with my number and email addy.
Andrew

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coveredbytheblood

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« Reply #27 on: February 28, 2005, 10:58:23 PM »
Quote from: "Spicoli"
Quote from: "coveredbytheblood"
There you guys go talking like smart people again.  What is pushing?  Remeber I am a little slowww.


But your car says GO?!


Yup, the car does say GO.  It does.  I just need time to catch up.  :)
Coveredbytheblood, JC's blood