Author Topic: Exhaust - Let me know if I am off my rocker....  (Read 8628 times)

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evil_O

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Exhaust - Let me know if I am off my rocker....
« on: June 07, 2005, 01:50:38 PM »
Ok.. another area the debate rages over whicn one is best - best performance, best look, best sound, best built, etc., etc.

Here is the thing.  I have a friend that works at Midas - He is a bit of an older fella like me, and has been doing exhaust work for 20+ years.  

As opposed to going the APR route, Milltek, etc., he can custom build a 2.5 inch cat back system for me.  He can do downpipe and free flow cat too - that may come later.  Then he will put on whatever muffler I want.  

Midas is carrying Flowmaster now and I kind of like the 50 Series of that muffler.  I am not sure how it would sound on a turbo charged engine but I have to imagine it would be more aggressive than stock.  Either that or I could go with the 40 Series.

I could get all this for around $300 tops.

Am I off my rocker in thinking this could be a decent set up.  I can always get another muffler.   But, to have a custom bent system, done in house with a guy that can service it, not have the huge price tag, competent service - cause of his experience........

What do you think?  Am I off my rocker??
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92UrS4

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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2005, 01:55:35 PM »
I don't think you're off your rocker. A custom exhaust setup could be incredible. Not sure about the flow masters, I know they'd be sweet on my Scout, but not sure on the turbo.

Still for $300, might be worth trying it! Helluva lot cheaper than the other "kits."

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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2005, 01:55:35 PM »

jayryan

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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2005, 02:07:44 PM »
You're not off your rocker at all. High performance exhausts are designed to move air. So you want bigger pipes and as straight as possible. The latter is why I would recommened not going with flowmaster unless they have a straight through variety. Their chambered system is not optimal.
Go with a straight through design. Dan (tweakdub) custom built a 2.5" system with a Magnaflow and it's sweet. It's probably too loud for the wife and kid though. So I say, do it and be happy :D
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evil_O

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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2005, 02:16:57 PM »
Just got off the phone with him.  Looks as though it will be $200 if I wanna do it.
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92UrS4

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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2005, 02:24:15 PM »
Well there ya go, no brainer. :)

jayryan

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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2005, 02:29:50 PM »
^ What he said ^  Does he do mandrel bending? Must have Mandrel bends :D
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BHase

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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2005, 02:55:24 PM »
I've pondered this question many times myself, mainly: "Why do we all pay $600-$1000 for exhaust systems when other people play $200-$400?"
If you do it, make sure you provide a lot of detailed, honest feedback!

Ben
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evil_O

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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2005, 03:32:18 PM »
grrr... I just got done typing my original response and lost it...  :evil:

OK.. here we go again.

JR - Yes.... it is all mandrel bent.  I would not have it any other way.  Also, in regards to the chambered Flowmaster, I am not convinced this would be costly in the restrictive sense.  I do know that it helps achieve a good sound - and hopefully not droney.

Ben - Honest feedback is the name of the game.  Considering that I can get ONE muffler at some places for the cost of this setup, I think I am off to a good start.  If things go right I will have it on for DATR and many of you can check it out for yourself.  

The worst case scenario is this:

If I do not like the muffler he will fit and refit whatever I want until I am happy.  I cannot say though that dropping 4 bills on two mufflers is anything I wanna do soon.  

Also, is there a resonator(s) between the cat and the mufflers?  If so, should it be removed?  I want to get as much low growl as I can with this 1.8T without a drone.  This may take some work but since I have a guy that will work with it till it is right, I guess I can't go wrong.

I am glad to see that I am not off my rocker.  I was thinking I would have to spend the amount Ben suggested to just be accepted by you guys  8O

I will work with Kevin to get the exhaust as straight as we can.  Also, I am going to stay with the stealth tips.  I like that  8)
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Spicoli

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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2005, 03:39:41 PM »
Personally I love the APR, I think it is the best sounding... DP wise it is the same as Milltek and GHL for performance... but from what i have seen (read) the GHL's muffler is less restrictive and you can get an extra 5hp over APR.  I had Milltek and it looked good (tip) but the sound was so-so and I constantly throw codes for the 3rd o2 sensor.
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evil_O

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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2005, 04:12:50 PM »
Quote from: "Spicoli"
Personally I love the APR, I think it is the best sounding...


I agree.  I have always liked APR but the question still remains... would I lose anything over a custom job?  Especially when the tone can be tuned per different mufflers... and I can still stay WAY below the cost of an APR setup.
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92UrS4

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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2005, 04:24:06 PM »
In theory you shouldn;t loose anything, the idea is that you need it built to teh correct specs for your setup to maximize performance. I am nowhere near an expert, but logically it would seem you could achieve the same results via a custom setup as you would from the likes of APR.

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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2005, 04:25:51 PM »
I don't know!  sorry.
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jayryan

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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2005, 04:31:49 PM »
With only a KO3, there's only so much you can do. Personally, I think going the extra $500 or so for a system isn't worth it unless I'm looking at 0.03sec time differences on a drag strip. For what I, and I'm sure most of us here do, just opening up the airways is enough.
You won't lose anything at all from stock. You can only gain right now.
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BHase

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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2005, 04:33:41 PM »
As far as the resonator is concerned, I don't have much experience with the 1.8T w/o a resonator. I will say that my 2.8 30v does have a resonator (Stebro exhaust), but it is still really loud, but not very much buzzing.  I had a friend who owns a 2001 Jetta VR6 and he didn't want a resonator...I wouldn't do it personally. Not sure you would like it. I'd stick with the resonator personally.

Ben
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evil_O

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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2005, 04:34:20 PM »
Quote from: "jayryan"
With only a KO3, there's only so much you can do. Personally, I think going the extra $500 or so for a system isn't worth it unless I'm looking at 0.03sec time differences on a drag strip. For what I, and I'm sure most of us here do, just opening up the airways is enough.
You won't lose anything at all from stock. You can only gain right now.


I think I am going to just got for it in the next couple of days.  I am goinn gto go and see him today with the car.  

Anything I should look for regarding throwing codes?  A new cat back system shoud not do that should it?
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jayryan

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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2005, 04:39:00 PM »
You shouldn't throw any codes. If you do, you can always Vag-Com it.
As far as resonators go, the stock resonator is the FIRST thing you should lose. If you need a resonator, do an aftermarket Brullen, Magnaflow or glasspack or something.
Aside from the turbo :wink: it's the most restrictive obstruction in the exhuast. AND it weighs 50lbs.
I should also note that I don't believe anyone makes an exhaust for the B5.5 1.8T 4mo yet.
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s4josh

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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2005, 04:46:32 PM »
I had a 2.5" custom cat-back with a original Flowmaster (which is the 40 series now) on a Saab 900 Turbo 2.0L 16v that I owned.  It actually sounded nice with a deep tone and you deffently could hear the turbo whistle alot better afterwards (which I like).  The only downside to flowmasters mufflers are when they drone they have a metal tone to them due to the all metal construction.  Just make sure if you are just installing a single muffler without a resonator, that you put the muffler in the middle of the pipe.  If you are going to use a resonator and muffler, put the resonator in the middle and the muffler at the end of the pipe.

I also had a 2.5 custom cat-back flowmaster 50 series on my Jeep Cherokee 4.0L L6.  Its sounds very nice at low to mid rpm range, but at the higher rpm range it becomes less distinctive for each fire and has a thrushey sound to it, but its designed to be mellower than a 30 and 40 series.

Just depends on how load you want it to be.  If you like the low deep tone and a some growl a flowmaster would be the way to go
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evil_O

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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2005, 04:56:19 PM »
JR - I have not seen anything on the net for the 4MO either.  It might be out there and maybe I just need to place some calls.  Or...

Ben/JR - Regarding the resonator... hmmm.. not sure what to do there.  I don't want the restriction but I don't want the drone either.  

My setup is a dual exhaust with the 4MO so I am not sure if I have two resonators or not - the wife needs to get home with the car asap.

Josh - I am thinking about going wth the 50 Series.  I just don't want a massive drone.  I think the turbo is going to keep it  abit quieter too.  Not to mention two mufflers.  Your post sounds promising fopr me though though  :D

And for the love of... I do not want a brrrraaaaaap braaaaap sound.
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gragravar

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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2005, 05:39:52 PM »
you'll have to let me know how this works out.  A guy on audiworld put straightpipes from the cats back on his allroad.  it was also a custom set of pipes looks and sounds terrific.

see link for the thread about his install which in turn links to the sound files and completed project pics.

http://forums.audiworld.com/allroad/msgs/112844.phtml
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92UrS4

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« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2005, 05:41:43 PM »
Hey, also ask your buddy how much he'd charge to do my 77 Scout II, I'l love to put in some flowmasters! Probably just need the mufflers, the pipes should be okay.

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« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2005, 05:58:40 PM »
Quote from: "gietl"
Hey, also ask your buddy how much he'd charge to do my 77 Scout II, I'l love to put in some flowmasters! Probably just need the mufflers, the pipes should be okay.


I will ask him.  What series would you want?  


I will keep all posted.  I am getting kind of stoked about this.  Maybe I will get it done this week!  After all, if I am getting software at DATR, this would make sense.

Oh, btw... I think I am going to go for aluminum vs. stainless.  We are dry enough here where I don't have to worry too much.  I know, I know it will look nicer in SS but it is under the car.  Besides, aluminum is lighter.  I need all the help I can get with the 4MO.
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« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2005, 06:00:22 PM »
I think all I would want is the 40, would need two for the dual exhaust I have.

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« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2005, 06:35:56 PM »
JR~
It is possible to have worse low-end torque with the larger aftermarket system.  I don't understand the physics of it, but it's well-documented.  Counterintuitive, I know, but do some research and you'll find it.

JerBer~
That said, it sounds like a screamin' deal.  The fact that you can change it if you don't like it is a BIG plus, too.  Kind of like a free insurance policy. :)
I say go for it.
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ianacole

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« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2005, 06:41:13 PM »
Quote from: "DenverPat"
JR~
It is possible to have worse low-end torque with the larger aftermarket system.  I don't understand the physics of it, but it's well-documented.  Counterintuitive, I know, but do some research and you'll find it.


I thought this was only applicable to NA motors where backpressure has specific optimal settings based on the motor.  In turbo engines, post turbo the highest efficiency exhaust is no exhaust, or so I've heard.
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gragravar

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« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2005, 06:45:08 PM »
Quote from: "ianacole"
Quote from: "DenverPat"
JR~
It is possible to have worse low-end torque with the larger aftermarket system.  I don't understand the physics of it, but it's well-documented.  Counterintuitive, I know, but do some research and you'll find it.


I thought this was only applicable to NA motors where backpressure has specific optimal settings based on the motor.  In turbo engines, post turbo the highest efficiency exhaust is no exhaust, or so I've heard.


turbos still need some back pressure to spool properly.  that said, the cats (presuming you are running cats) should provide enough for that.
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DenverPat

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« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2005, 06:45:08 PM »
Quote from: "ianacole"
Quote from: "DenverPat"
JR~
It is possible to have worse low-end torque with the larger aftermarket system.  I don't understand the physics of it, but it's well-documented.  Counterintuitive, I know, but do some research and you'll find it.


I thought this was only applicable to NA motors where backpressure has specific optimal settings based on the motor.  In turbo engines, post turbo the highest efficiency exhaust is no exhaust, or so I've heard.


Logically that makes sense.  However, I've heard of this being true for B5s as well.  Don't ask me why because I don't get it.  It's not a significant loss from what I hear, but interesting nonetheless.  I've never experienced it first hand.
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evil_O

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« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2005, 06:49:26 PM »
Pat - I have done quite a bit of reading and it does appear that you will lose low end torque with anything larger than 2.5 - something to do with not enough back pressure causing a large about of t lag.  I have read that 2.5 is good to about the 300HP range.  If you want more than that then it is time for a bigger turbo and lungs.  Since I am tip, I will not go near those figures.

I also think this is a good deal.  Since he is a buddy he is willing to do what needs to be done for me to get it right/make me happy.  I am starting to wonder now if I am going to have him just go ahead and fab up a DP too.  TT Tuning is about the only one I have found that makes one for the tip - and I know I would get a better deal with a custom one.
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DenverPat

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« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2005, 06:52:27 PM »
Jeremy~
It sounds like you're going about this a very smart way.  If you've got a hook up, and he'll be working in there anyway, I say go for the DP.  That'll certainly make the car louder, but if you can put up with it you will notice better performance.
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03Indigo

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« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2005, 06:57:56 PM »
Jeremy, we soooo need to talk tomorrow, I want a custom exhaust on my car so you will have to hook me up with your buddy.  I want the silencer taken out, and maybe some new cans.

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« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2005, 07:10:01 PM »
Quote from: "03Indigo"
Jeremy, we soooo need to talk tomorrow, I want a custom exhaust on my car so you will have to hook me up with your buddy.  I want the silencer taken out, and maybe some new cans.


Looking forward to it.  I am sure he can hook you up... I just need to talk to him and get the clearance to drop his name and location here.  I think all will be good though.
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