Author Topic: Exhaust - Let me know if I am off my rocker....  (Read 8629 times)

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DenverPat

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Exhaust - Let me know if I am off my rocker....
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2005, 07:18:33 PM »
Jon, you're getting implants? :P
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jayryan

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« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2005, 07:20:24 PM »
I noted the fact that since he's only got a K03, his planned setup will work fine. Yes, you can go backwards the more car is tuned by not having the proper setup for the tune. But in our case- lightly tuned K03's- anything stock size and up to a point will be better than the OEM system we currently have.

I'm not trying to spread disinformation. I'm just not as clear as I should be. :roll: All this TV warps my brainwaves.

If you have too big of pipes for your turbo, you will lose low-end TQ. The turbo needs to push that much more through to fill the larger diameter (backpressue). If you go too small, than the air doesn't flow fast enough. That's the way I look at it. I guess it's like upgrading to a bigger turbo and keeping the intake the same...the turbo's too big and can't be utilized and you don't gain much.

So, if you don't have a huge turbo, why the huge exhaust? I talk too much....
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« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2005, 07:20:24 PM »

ianacole

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« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2005, 07:20:42 PM »
Quote from: "gragravar"
turbos still need some back pressure to spool properly.  that said, the cats (presuming you are running cats) should provide enough for that.


From what I understand the only back pressure needed is from the block to the turbo to maintain constant, consistant flow (hence some of the designs floating around on equal-length exhaust manifold runners).
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gragravar

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« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2005, 07:44:43 PM »
Quote from: "JerBear"
Looking forward to it.  I am sure he can hook you up... I just need to talk to him and get the clearance to drop his name and location here.  I think all will be good though.


and if he likes his name being dropped here.  our fees to have him join us as an advertiser are pretty small. :mrgreen:
Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves.  ~Albert Einstein

evil_O

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« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2005, 07:47:54 PM »
Quote from: "gragravar"
Quote from: "JerBear"
Looking forward to it.  I am sure he can hook you up... I just need to talk to him and get the clearance to drop his name and location here.  I think all will be good though.


and if he likes his name being dropped here.  our fees to have him join us as an advertiser are pretty small. :mrgreen:


HAHA... got ya.  I guess peeps will have to PM me then.  Or those that know me can just call.
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« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2005, 10:33:59 PM »
The equation is now a little different than what I know.

The exhaust on this '04 1.8T 4MO is different than expected.  I will first attempt to explain what I know, and then humbly ask for input.

1. It appears the cat (3 inch) is attached directly to the turbo
2. From there the downpipe proceeds with a 2.25 diameter
3. It them transforms itself to a flattened 2.25 pipe
4. Right before it hits the resonator - not as big the typical suitcase resonator - it Y's.  The Y pipes are now 1.5 inches.
5. The Y pipes then hit the resonator and exit with dual 1.5 inch pipes
6. They extend back to what is now known to me as suitcase mufflers
7. Reportedly these mufflers are very restrictive

So, here is the question.  Normally one would go 2.5 inch turbo back ... but this is different with the dual exit.  Hence if you go 2.5 inch to and the Y to dual 2.5 inches won't you get too much airflow and not enough back pressure?

Here is one proposed idea:

1. Leave turbo
2. Leave 3 inch cat
3. Replace 2.25 DP with 2.5 incher
4. Replace 2.25 flattened pipe with 2.5 inch pipe
5. Do not Y it into the muffler but rather one in and two out
6. Replace resonator with muffler - almost under the rear seat
7. Replace 1.5 inch Y pipes with 2 inch Ys.
8. Straight back exit to the rear of the car with 2 inch pipes - with NO mufflers to replace the stock suitcase mufflers

Does anyone see an issue with this???  At this point I am not inclined to think I will lose low end TQ but then again I could be wrong.  If the system is too loud or droney I can always add mufflers or GP where the original suitcase mufflers were - at the rear of the car.
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Eric18T

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Re: Exhaust - Let me know if I am off my rocker....
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2005, 10:51:00 PM »
Quote from: "JerBear"
Ok.. another area the debate rages over whicn one is best - best performance, best look, best sound, best built, etc., etc.

Here is the thing.  I have a friend that works at Midas - He is a bit of an older fella like me, and has been doing exhaust work for 20+ years.  

As opposed to going the APR route, Milltek, etc., he can custom build a 2.5 inch cat back system for me.  He can do downpipe and free flow cat too - that may come later.  Then he will put on whatever muffler I want.  

Midas is carrying Flowmaster now and I kind of like the 50 Series of that muffler.  I am not sure how it would sound on a turbo charged engine but I have to imagine it would be more aggressive than stock.  Either that or I could go with the 40 Series.

I could get all this for around $300 tops.

Am I off my rocker in thinking this could be a decent set up.  I can always get another muffler.   But, to have a custom bent system, done in house with a guy that can service it, not have the huge price tag, competent service - cause of his experience........

What do you think?  Am I off my rocker??


You can always find something cheaper.. Oh well. I ended up spending $1100 + install for my exhaust for the A4.. And for some weird reason it doesn't bother me... I must have problems with my head.  :(

BHase

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« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2005, 11:18:39 PM »
Quote from: "Eric18T"
You can always find something cheaper.. Oh well. I ended up spending $1100 + install for my exhaust for the A4.. And for some weird reason it doesn't bother me... I must have problems with my head.  :(


Eric: Same. I paid about $850 with installation, but it was a good looking, good sounding exhaust which has given me tons of pleasure over the past three years. If you take it pro rata, that's only $283.34 a year.  I'm not sure that I ever want to sell the car (it isn't worth anything anyhow), so it is worth it in the end.

Jeremy: Interesting setup on that Passat 4Motion, didn't know that. As long as you feel good about it, I think the setup you're suggesting sounds fine. Again, I don't know much about it. But it would be cool to see if it works out! But then, it isn't going on my car either.  :?

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Eric18T

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« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2005, 11:21:42 PM »
oh and please put some mufflers on there. Your wife and child will thank you for it...

evil_O

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« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2005, 11:26:56 PM »
Quote from: "Eric18T"
oh and please put some mufflers on there. Your wife and child will thank you for it...


 :?:

There is already going to be one... at the almost center of the car - one just like most are running now without the dual.

If it drones.. meaning I don't like it... I can always make it more quiet with GPs or two more mufflers.

... and yes you can always find something cheaper - more expensive however does not always mean better.  And at this point NO ONE has anything out there for a direct replacement as they do for the non 4MO cars.
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Eric18T

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« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2005, 11:37:49 PM »
Quote from: "JerBear"
Quote from: "Eric18T"
oh and please put some mufflers on there. Your wife and child will thank you for it...


 :?:

There is already going to be one... at the almost center of the car - one just like most are running now without the dual.

If it drones.. meaning I don't like it... I can always make it more quiet with GPs or two more mufflers.

... and yes you can always find something cheaper - more expensive however does not always mean better.  And at this point NO ONE has anything out there for a direct replacement as they do for the non 4MO cars.


The only reason i said to make sure you put mufflers on there is when i had the jetta i tried a similar thing using a series of mufflers (magnaflow) in the middle with straight pipe after that with a simple rear valace exit, well it was very loud. It just echoed/bellowed in the car. It was crazy. I drove it for a couple hundred miles hoping it would quiet down.. But it never happened.  i promptly went and ordered a Autotech system after that was amazingly quiet..

I never was trying to aquait(sp)  $$ to quality.  But after my custom exhaust attempt, i will never try it again. I will just order something and call it a day. Good luck with the custom setup.. And Hopefully you have better luck than me.  :)

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« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2005, 11:42:17 PM »
Quote from: "Eric18T"

The only reason i said to make sure you put mufflers on there is when i had the jetta i tried a similar thing using a series of mufflers (magnaflow) in the middle with straight pipe after that with a simple rear valace exit, well it was very loud. It just echoed/bellowed in the car. It was crazy. I drove it for a couple hundred miles hoping it would quiet down.. But it never happened.  i promptly went and ordered a Autotech system after that was amazingly quiet..


Now that is some good information.  The kind of stuff I am looking for.. hehehe...  What engine did you have in the Jetta?
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DenverPat

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« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2005, 11:59:35 PM »
I'm not sure what to tell you.  If I were in your shoes, I'd try to keep it as simple as possible.  I see no reason to run twin pipes anywhere in your system since it's a four-banger with a 4 into 1 exhaust manifold.  Also, your exhaust differs from mine.  Mine goes block to ported/polished manifold, turbo, 3 inch DP, cat, pipe to muffler at the back.  If I were in your shoes I'd talk to as many people as possible that have done what you're considering.  What do you plan on doing with the O2 sensor(s)?  There are a lot of variables here that none of us have first hand experience with.  Make some phone calls and send some emails to others with your same kind of car.  Learn from their experiences.
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evil_O

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« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2005, 12:07:18 AM »
Quote from: "DenverPat"
I'm not sure what to tell you.  If I were in your shoes, I'd try to keep it as simple as possible.  I see no reason to run twin pipes anywhere in your system since it's a four-banger with a 4 into 1 exhaust manifold.  Also, your exhaust differs from mine.  Mine goes block to ported/polished manifold, turbo, 3 inch DP, cat, pipe to muffler at the back.  If I were in your shoes I'd talk to as many people as possible that have done what you're considering.  What do you plan on doing with the O2 sensor(s)?  There are a lot of variables here that none of us have first hand experience with.  Make some phone calls and send some emails to others with your same kind of car.  Learn from their experiences.


O2 sensors... good question.  I know this came up momentarily at the shop.  Any idea how many are there?  Just one?  Or are there multiple?
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DenverPat

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« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2005, 12:11:14 AM »
You're asking the wrong guy.  Keep in mind they don't have to remain in the same places as originals.  I used to have one right after the turbo, then one right before the cat.  The new program I'm using specs the first one in the same location as the original, but the second one is now two inches after the cat.   That's why I say talk to someone that's been through this before, unless you don't mind being a guinea pig.
Hell, with your hook up being the guinea pig isn't a terrible thing, I guess.
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evil_O

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« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2005, 12:26:06 AM »
Quote from: "DenverPat"
You're asking the wrong guy.  Keep in mind they don't have to remain in the same places as originals.  I used to have one right after the turbo, then one right before the cat.  The new program I'm using specs the first one in the same location as the original, but the second one is now two inches after the cat.   That's why I say talk to someone that's been through this before, unless you don't mind being a guinea pig.
Hell, with your hook up being the guinea pig isn't a terrible thing, I guess.


Well, I am supposing they could be put back in the same relative spot - but who knows.  Not sure how much I wanna be a total guinea pig.   :?

I guess another option would be to do away with the dual and just run a single pipe as stated by some.... mmmm

And I was thinking I could get this tomorrow... riiiight....
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DenverPat

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« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2005, 12:34:04 AM »
I don't know crap about engineering exhausts.  I'm guessing they did that for a reason.  I would want to know why, then figure out if I could get by with a simpler, single pipe exhaust knowing why they did what they did.
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« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2005, 12:40:41 AM »
Quote from: "DenverPat"
I don't know crap about engineering exhausts.  I'm guessing they did that for a reason.  I would want to know why, then figure out if I could get by with a simpler, single pipe exhaust knowing why they did what they did.


I think I am going to call around tomorrow.  APR, Milltek, Neuspeed, SuperSprint, Strat....


ahhhh heck.  Maybe I will just buy a DV and wait for a friggen bolt on replacement to come in.

Don't ya just love going in friggin circles???? :oops:  :evil:  :cry:  :roll:
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Eric18T

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« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2005, 01:10:34 AM »
Quote from: "JerBear"
Quote from: "Eric18T"

The only reason i said to make sure you put mufflers on there is when i had the jetta i tried a similar thing using a series of mufflers (magnaflow) in the middle with straight pipe after that with a simple rear valace exit, well it was very loud. It just echoed/bellowed in the car. It was crazy. I drove it for a couple hundred miles hoping it would quiet down.. But it never happened.  i promptly went and ordered a Autotech system after that was amazingly quiet..


Now that is some good information.  The kind of stuff I am looking for.. hehehe...  What engine did you have in the Jetta?


1.8T. We had problems with the 02 sensors and placements/location of those. I received a CE light since they weren't quite right. I also had the same problem with the GHL DP i had (bad 02 sesor locations). i learned alot of lessons with the jetta and i am trying to not go down that same road with the A4 now. I spent more $$ trying to save money (custom exhaust/dp..) than i would have spent to just do it right the first time and buy something that was properly engineered for the application.

I just don't want to see someone repeat what i have already tried and had to fix.. It just isn;t worth it.

Again like Pat i know nothing about exhaust engineering, This is not my feild of expertiese.  All i know is what i read in Corky Bells "Maximum Boost" book.

If you need a DV i have a couple spare bosch ones kicking around that i will trade ya for a cup of coffee.

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« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2005, 01:22:52 AM »
Quote from: "Eric18T"

1.8T. We had problems with the 02 sensors and placements/location of those. I received a CE light since they weren't quite right. I also had the same problem with the GHL DP i had (bad 02 sesor locations). i learned alot of lessons with the jetta and i am trying to not go down that same road with the A4 now. I spent more $$ trying to save money (custom exhaust/dp..) than i would have spent to just do it right the first time and buy something that was properly engineered for the application.

I just don't want to see someone repeat what i have already tried and had to fix.. It just isn;t worth it.

Again like Pat i know nothing about exhaust engineering, This is not my feild of expertiese.  All i know is what i read in Corky Bells "Maximum Boost" book.

If you need a DV i have a couple spare bosch ones kicking around that i will trade ya for a cup of coffee.


I hear ya there.  I am thinking I may just contact Strat and Milltek tomorrow.  I really like that exhaust.. or er.. maybe APR.  

As far as the DV goes, I am not sure here either - LOL.  I had a Hyperboost on my GTI and I loved it.  Looking there now they have the HX and HXc.  If those are anything like the last one I had... I may just settle for that.  But I know the debate rages on that too - stock vs. bailey vs. forge vs. hyperboost......

As far as the coffee goes, just name it.  I am always down for coffee... in fact I may have some right now....
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gragravar

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« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2005, 01:26:08 AM »
Quote from: "JerBear"
Quote from: "gragravar"
Quote from: "JerBear"
Looking forward to it.  I am sure he can hook you up... I just need to talk to him and get the clearance to drop his name and location here.  I think all will be good though.


and if he likes his name being dropped here.  our fees to have him join us as an advertiser are pretty small. :mrgreen:


HAHA... got ya.  I guess peeps will have to PM me then.  Or those that know me can just call.


that's not quite what I meant Please do post the shop name (with their OK) as a bunch of us want to know.  I was just thinking that if a little name drop leads to a little business, then sponsorship would make things more visible and could mean more business...  and a happy thing for everyone. :D
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DenverPat

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« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2005, 01:28:38 AM »
As far as DVs go, I don't know much.  I'm under the impression all the ones you mentioned are excellent quality.  Although there might not be much of a difference between products (?), I was very impressed with the level of service I got from Forge.  Search AW for my post on my experience with them and how they made up for ECS's mistakes...and then some.  They totally went above and beyond and earned my loyalty.  That's not easy to do.
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BHase

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« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2005, 03:05:38 AM »
Ugh. All this talk of exhausts is making me want to buy the Supersprint headers for the 2.8 ($1100 w/o install), which, if you didn't know already, have to be imported (you can see them at http://www.supersprint.it).  

Just run open headers. You'll know it is non-restrictive and you'll know how loud it will be. Run that setup for about 6 months, and never will you find an exhaust system too loud!

Ben
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« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2005, 03:46:05 AM »
Oh wow, that is one pricey exhaust though for $1400 before install!  But I've never heard anything bad about Supersprint (maybe someone else has?). I know they are a common system on supercharged 2.8's, according to another forum I am on, and most people have been quite satisfied, though I think the 2.8 Supersprint costs about half of what that system costs.

Ben
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« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2005, 03:53:48 AM »
Quote from: "BHase"
Oh wow, that is one pricey exhaust though for $1400 before install!  
Ben


I about fell off the couch when 1. I found it and 2. I saw the price. 8O

I will be calling around tomorrow and finding out if anyone else has this in the works.  This price is outrageous and should be if it is the only one offered at present time.  They have the market.
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« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2005, 04:03:14 AM »
We can get a potential discount from parts4vws.com, but I doubt it would be anything significant for that item if anything.  We tend to get like $5 off.

BHase

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« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2005, 04:04:34 AM »
I'm assuming you have a manual transmission. Neuspeed makes a cat-back exhaust for the B5.5 Passat 1.8T for $749.95.

http://www.neuspeed.com/products/product_details.asp?app=57|B6&type=5&ltype=ns_euro&p_id=609

And here's the one for the Tip:

http://www.neuspeed.com/products/product_details.asp?app=57|B6&type=5&ltype=ns_euro&p_id=610

Ben
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« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2005, 04:07:07 AM »
Quote from: "BHase"
I'm assuming you have a manual transmission. Neuspeed makes a cat-back exhaust for the B5.5 Passat 1.8T for $749.95.

http://www.neuspeed.com/products/product_details.asp?app=57|B6&type=5&ltype=ns_euro&p_id=609


Ben


Now Ben if you had read this entire thread.. hahaha... you would have seen I have Tip.  :lol:

I really don't blame ya though, this thing has really grown in such a short amount of time...

And the one that is listed for Tip is not for 4MO  :(
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« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2005, 04:08:32 AM »
Quote from: "JerBear"
Quote from: "BHase"
I'm assuming you have a manual transmission. Neuspeed makes a cat-back exhaust for the B5.5 Passat 1.8T for $749.95.

http://www.neuspeed.com/products/product_details.asp?app=57|B6&type=5&ltype=ns_euro&p_id=609


Ben


Now Ben if you had read this entire thread.. hahaha... you would have seen I have Tip.  :lol:

I really don't blame ya though, this thing has really grown in such a short amount of time...



I was looking for it, didn't see it...but then editted my previous post just in case. It has the link for the Tip Neuspeed Exhaust on it too now.

Ben
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