Poll

Whos Chip?

GIAC - Flashloader
1 (20%)
APR - Directport Programming
3 (60%)
Neuspeed - Optican Flash Programming
1 (20%)
Other - Please post who/why
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 5

Voting closed: April 03, 2006, 01:49:48 PM

Author Topic: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?  (Read 4962 times)

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s4josh

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GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« on: March 24, 2006, 06:49:48 PM »
Please let me know what you guys think about the following manufactures and how you have been treated in the past and known problems common to the manufactures; if any.  I would appreciate the feed back!  I am going to be looking to buy one very shortly! woot!!!

GIAC - "Flashloader" uses a dongle to switch modes

91 octane (Crank)
+18-50 HP
+50-85 FT-LBS

This new software (OBD2 port programming) offers exceptionally smooth drivability with the same punch you are used to with GIAC X-plus programming. Extensive dyno tests with our 91-octane software revealed an impressive 18-50 HP and 50-85 TQ (crank) over stock, hardware modification and model dependent. The Flashloader Handheld switcher will be an available upgrade to GIAC customers early in 2006. Race gas, antitheft, and valetmode programming will also be available. Both the switcher and all software from GIAC can be installed quickly and easily via GIACs new proprietary CAN-compatible flashing tool at specially-equipped GIAC authorized dealers.

APR - "Directport Programming" uses cruise control to switch modes

91 octane (Crank)
+46 HP
+75 FT-LBS

APR is now proud to make DirectPort Programming available to the public. DirectPort programming allows all of the same functionality of EMCS, but without ANY hardware. This system allows programs to uploaded to the engine ECU via the factory OBDII port.

Neuspeed - "Optican flash programmer" no ways to switch modes besides returning to the dealer and requires a laptop

93 octane (Crank)
+57 HP
+101 FT-LBS

Utilizing our RISC based programmer and any PC running Windows XP with an available USB 2.0 port, NEUSPEED programming dealers are able to flash program ECUs via the vehicle’s OBDII diagnostic port.  Now you can have the reliability you have come to expect from NEUSPEED P-Chip software with the convenience of local installation.

- Josh
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Eric18T

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2006, 07:15:24 PM »
just go see randy and get the GIAC. That way if you need any help with it you have a local honest person to deal with. 2nd i would go see mark at SCR at get APR. But then you have to drive to loveland.

Both the APR and GIAC are very good. I would go to the closest dealer.. A

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2006, 07:15:24 PM »

Spicoli

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2006, 12:13:08 AM »
I would get GIAC or APR.  I'm not a fan of Revo.  If it was my car and GIAC is doing the same #s as APR, I would do them.. if APR had significantly higher #s I would go them.  GIAC for me, plus I like to support randy.

Nuespeed is 93 octane, and I don't really trust their software.
Life's too short to be taken seriously

shummer

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2006, 11:41:55 AM »
What would make the GIAC only give +18 HP?

kraut-sled

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2006, 04:05:21 PM »
Quote from: "shummer";p="43954"
What would make the GIAC only give +18 HP?


I will look into this specific program on Monday and get some answers.  Most of the time GIAC quotes a wider range uf numbers because they other modifications on the car have an impact on the numbers as does altitude.

I will give more details on Monday.
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s4josh

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2006, 01:19:16 PM »
GIAC website said the difference in the range depended on the model (A4, A3, Jetta, Golf, or Passat) and modifications to the exhaust and air box.

I am leaning towards GIAC, but I still like the cruise control feature with APR.  

One advantage to GIAC is if the tech at the dealer working on your car knew how APR uses the cruise control he could easily(?) see if you are chipped, where GIAC you have to hook up the dongle to see it.

Thanks for the responses so for!  We need more votes!
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ianacole

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2006, 01:25:00 PM »
I absolutely love my APR chip, somewhat for reasons that are no longer valid (I have the solder in chip with the home programmer that allows me to load my software revisions on my own and do my own custom programming).  If I were to make the decision today, I would choose GIAC, with no small part of the decision based on the fact that it would be Randy doing the install and supporting it down the road.
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Eric18T

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2006, 01:46:02 PM »
in regards to APR - the dealer has no way to change the programs with the cruise control unless they know your 4 digit security access code.

with GIAC -  you use the need little dongle thing and it reloads the other software


Both products are really good. Ian and I are old time APR folks and have been so for many years. But with having Randy dealing in GIAC i would likely go to him since i trust his services and i know if something went wrong he would go out of his way to help me out.  While Mark up at SCR is really good to deal with, the fact is you have to drive to loveland for service.

Eric

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2006, 02:35:18 PM »



Revo



E

Eric18T

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2006, 02:43:06 PM »
Quote from: "Eric";p="43983"



Revo



E


I think you sell REVO, so do you have a Dyno of a local car or atleast one here in the US. Your plots are from Europe.

Eric

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2006, 02:47:56 PM »
i don't at the moment. i can see what i can find though! we have done 3 GLI's and 1 GTI so far, it feels great



E

givebloodplayhockey

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2006, 02:48:25 PM »
Quote from: "Eric18T";p="43977"
in regards to APR - the dealer has no way to change the programs with the cruise control unless they know your 4 digit security access code.

with GIAC -  you use the need little dongle thing and it reloads the other software


Both products are really good. Ian and I are old time APR folks and have been so for many years. But with having Randy dealing in GIAC i would likely go to him since i trust his services and i know if something went wrong he would go out of his way to help me out.  While Mark up at SCR is really good to deal with, the fact is you have to drive to loveland for service.


I went with APR but only because Randy didn't ahve anything at the time. I would have gone GIAC strictly because of Randy.

As far as changing programs with the APR it's a breeze. I have 3 programs and I use the cruise control to flip from one to the other. If I am not mistaken I think GIAC does the same thing.
In reality GIAC, APR and REVO all make good products. In the end the biggest decision is who you'ld like to support. Big  :thumbup: for Randy at Autobahn.
I dealt with Joel @ RS for my APR and he's been really good too. It's all just a matter of who ya like!
003 GTI VR6, Heavy mods.
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DenverPat

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2006, 03:11:22 PM »
Of those, I would say go with GIAC.  Good track record with good local support.
You do have another option that also offers local support.  MTM is attainable through Autoworks Colorado.  Normally MTM sells their chip for the A3 for $695.  Through the end of March they're selling it for $525.
http://hoppenmotorsport.com/A3front.htm
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s4josh

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2006, 03:49:29 PM »
Support is good and all but it is not going to fix my engine if it gets blown up because of shottie programming!  Good HP and TRQ figures are nice, but I would like my engine to last a while ;)  It be good if my turbo lasted to 60k then upgrade!  I am wondering about these company's from that prospective also.

When I talked to someone a GIAC about my S4 they told me not to run their software until I had done at least my down pipes and exhaust.  Their program was setup more for people who had modified their cars already and not to run on stock setups.  Where APR said it was fine to run on the stock setup, but I should think about getting my cat back done.

When I see HP and TRQ figures I don't want to buy the chip that has the highest output because I know there going to smoke my turbo first?!
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shummer

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2006, 04:00:38 PM »
The APR security lockout deal is an additional feature so it costs extra for that. Like others said, if you did not have the lockout and had multiple programs and someone simply held down the set button for a few seconds, one could switch between the programs very easily.

Eric18T

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2006, 04:29:41 PM »
Like Pat mentioned MTM is another option. They offer very smooth programing but keep in mind they still solder a chip in and the local tuner mails it to FL, so there is a little downtime.. Versus APR, GIAC, and Revo do a direct port system.

in the past APR & MTM have been know to more conservative with programing. GIAC tended to have more aggressive programing. REVO well i don't know anything about there programing other than it is hacked APR software, j/k. :).  On the latest 2.0T the highest real numbers i saw were from APR then GIAC was just a tad behind them. Close enough to say they were pretty much the same.

DenverPat

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2006, 04:40:36 PM »
Keep in mind, all of the MTM numbers are TUV certified.  None of the others are.  Also, the numbers quoted are peaks.
Take a look at the CAPS database on AW.  You'll see that, although the quoted MTM numbers are less than nearly all the competition, of all the K04 cars, the MTM-tuned ones are the fastest.  Mine looks slow compared to the others because I tested at 5,500 ft.  Compensate for the altitude, and you'll see my car and the only other MTM-tuned are are faster than every other K04 car in the database, even though our quoted numbers are lower than the competiion.
The MTM cars boost less than most of the competition, too.
Of course, area under the curve has something to do with it.  DUBITUP's APR stage three was only half a second faster than my car in the test, yet APR claims 280 hp and over 300 tq, compared to MTM's claim of 240 hp.  We tested our cars back to back on the same stretch of road.
I'm not saying MTM is the best, or what you should do.  I'm simply trying to point out there's more to the story than peak numbers.
"Of all the extreme sports I've ever participated in- windsurfing, kite boarding, wake boarding, tow-in surfing and snowboarding- skiing, for me, made everything else easy."
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Eric18T

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2006, 05:00:01 PM »
Quote from: "DenverPat";p="43992"
Keep in mind, all of the MTM numbers are TUV certified.  None of the others are.  Also, the numbers quoted are peaks.
Take a look at the CAPS database on AW.  You'll see that, although the quoted MTM numbers are less than nearly all the competition, of all the K04 cars, the MTM-tuned ones are the fastest.  Mine looks slow compared to the others because I tested at 5,500 ft.  Compensate for the altitude, and you'll see my car and the only other MTM-tuned are are faster than every other K04 car in the database, even though our quoted numbers are lower than the competiion.
The MTM cars boost less than most of the competition, too.
Of course, area under the curve has something to do with it.  DUBITUP's APR stage three was only half a second faster than my car in the test, yet APR claims 280 hp and over 300 tq, compared to MTM's claim of 240 hp.  We tested our cars back to back on the same stretch of road.
I'm not saying MTM is the best, or what you should do.  I'm simply trying to point out there's more to the story than peak numbers.


Pat -  Do you know of a caps databse for the b6 cars? I am curious where my car falls out. Do you think you could help me with that? I am still waiting on my VAG-COM cable.

jfrahm

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2006, 05:15:36 PM »
This software should be controlling boost based on manifold absolute pressure, so a typical sea level conversion would not be fair.  You'd want to datalog the MAP sensor and see if it is really putting fewer air molecules into the engine at 5500' than a similar setup does at 0', check the air temp, and have a look at the turbo map to see if you are in a much less efficient part of the map.  At altitude your pressure ratio goes up since you are /.8 instead of over 1.0, moving you a bit higher in the map (no big deal in a K04 at 1 bar or so, but a consideration with a K03.)  So the K03 starts blowing more hot air due to the higher pressure ratio sooner than the K04.  How much more depends on how much boost, flow, etc.  Trying to figure altitude correction on a modern electronically controlled turbo is pretty difficult.

Long story short with a K03 at 1 bar you might take 1/2 the altitude conversion factor, with a K04 very little correction at this altitude, and you should be aware that it's a fudge factor and not actually a conversion.

-Joel.

P.S. Does the 2.0 FSI log requested and actual boost long-term?  Can that be cleared from the ECU?  When I was fooling with the Passat I was manipulating the MAP signal to prevent the ECU from becoming aware of my boost habits (and sharing that info with my service advisor.)
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kraut-sled

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2006, 05:35:26 PM »
From my email to GIAC requesting a GTI specific Dyno plot...

"They are the same ECU, so the graph would be similar.  The GTI will have more power because of the exhaust, but other than that they are the same.  I can find a GTI graph, but it may take a day or so.  Let me know if you still need it. "

And I too agree, that all numbers are general and not exact as to real world conditions or altitude.  W can debate for years on the subject, but I say just chip it and enjoy it. :wink:
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DenverPat

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2006, 05:36:53 PM »
Eric~
Sorry I don't know of anything similar for B6s.  Maybe you should start one, or contact Modified A4 to see if he wants to.

Joel~
You have great points.  Thanks for posting that info.
FWIW, I didn't use an absolute formula to correct for altitude.  I know my car is running right, and so does DUBITUP.  We compared his car to others with the identical setup, calulated the percentage and abolute difference between testing up here and where they did (sea level), the applied those factors to my car.  It is admittedly a very gray way of comparing things, but CAPS is not the final word in performance anyway.  It is a useful way to compare you car against others, however.
Of course, it'd be much more useful if more of you high altitude mo-fos with B5s would do it so we have some local numbers to compare with! :wink:
"Of all the extreme sports I've ever participated in- windsurfing, kite boarding, wake boarding, tow-in surfing and snowboarding- skiing, for me, made everything else easy."
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DenverPat

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2006, 05:41:48 PM »
Quote from: "kraut-sled";p="44000"
From my email to GIAC requesting a GTI specific Dyno plot...

"They are the same ECU, so the graph would be similar.  The GTI will have more power because of the exhaust, but other than that they are the same.  I can find a GTI graph, but it may take a day or so.  Let me know if you still need it. "

And I too agree, that all numbers are general and not exact as to real world conditions or altitude.  W can debate for years on the subject, but I say just chip it and enjoy it. :wink:


Word.  When it comes down to it, all of the discussion on this thread will be of minimal affect on your happiness.  Get a chip, have someone available to go to in the unlikely event you run into problems, and drive the piss out of it.   You're not going to tell a huge difference between any of the chips.
"Of all the extreme sports I've ever participated in- windsurfing, kite boarding, wake boarding, tow-in surfing and snowboarding- skiing, for me, made everything else easy."
-Chuck Patterson

givebloodplayhockey

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2006, 06:18:10 PM »
Quote from: "kraut-sled";p="44000"


And I too agree, that all numbers are general and not exact as to real world conditions or altitude.  W can debate for years on the subject, but I say just chip it and enjoy it. :wink:


Ditto. Loving my program more and more.
003 GTI VR6, Heavy mods.
2006 B6 2.0T, APR, soon with new booties, coil-overs and Votex body kit
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s4josh

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2006, 08:16:07 PM »
Thanks for all the responses! :)
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ColoradoB5

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2006, 11:53:43 PM »
Pat, regarding MTM, do they still have specific aftermarket parts combinations they recommend you using as well?  I know they are very thorough, and the results (not just peak HP and TQ) do speak a lot for them.  Just wondering if that is the same as it used to be?
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DenverPat

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2006, 11:59:01 AM »
Yep, MTM is the same is it has always been.
"Of all the extreme sports I've ever participated in- windsurfing, kite boarding, wake boarding, tow-in surfing and snowboarding- skiing, for me, made everything else easy."
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s4josh

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2006, 01:28:23 PM »
I have decided to go with the GIAC and I am going to have Randy hook me up with...

Stock
91 oct
100 oct
Kill/Valet
and the Handheld controller

as soon a sell my BBS wheels I will be down to see you Randy ;)

woot!!!
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gragravar

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2006, 01:37:35 PM »
Quote from: "s4josh";p="44513"
as soon a sell my BBS wheels


I am working it, I am working it.   8)
Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves.  ~Albert Einstein

Eric18T

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2006, 01:55:50 PM »
Quote from: "gragravar";p="44515"


I am working it, I am working it.   8)


I think he wants you to work faster...:)

gragravar

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Re: GTI MKV 2.0T FSI - Whos chip to use?
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2006, 02:00:34 PM »
Quote from: "Eric18T";p="44516"
Quote from: "gragravar";p="44515"


I am working it, I am working it.   8)


I think he wants you to work faster...:)


Tied up at that critical accounting approval step.   :roll:
Any man who can drive safely while kissing a pretty girl is simply not giving the kiss the attention it deserves.  ~Albert Einstein