Author Topic: Worst fears confirmed...  (Read 7588 times)

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SweetVW

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« on: April 05, 2004, 01:34:25 PM »
I dropped of the car this morning at Mountain States and received a call back from the Service Rep letting me know what the creaking sound was.  She said the tech stated the following:

Both left side upper control arms are worn.
Both left/right tie rods are worn.

I did not approve repair due to the cost of $1100.00.  Holly cow!  

I ask, what would it cost do this myself?  What is the difficulty level?

I knew that with the lowered suspension, this would come up at some point.

Thanks for any feed back.
If it ain't broke, take it apart and fix it!

kt037

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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2004, 01:51:22 PM »
as long as you do not have to drill out any bolts, they should be pretty easy to do.. i do believe there are a couple of VAG tools needed, spreaders and what not. ill look it up in my bently and let you know.

if you do it by yourself, let me know and ill make the trek to give you a hand.

would be easier to call me... 719-287-0929
OT DISH?-----> nope!
and YES I KNOW I CAN NOT SEPLL!!!!

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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2004, 01:51:22 PM »

RobD

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« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2004, 02:17:47 AM »
Check ECS tuning for replacement paRTS.  I think they have upgraded control arms too.  I had my tie rods replaced under VWcertified warranty and it ook them a few hrs to do it at he dealership.
Good Luck!

SweetVW

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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2004, 02:25:35 AM »
Thanks guys.  I would have to check, but would the tie rods be covered under second owner 50,000 mi. warranty?  Would my suspension upgrade void that?
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ColoradoB5

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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2004, 11:56:34 AM »
Dave,  That is a big bummer man!

Were they making noise when you turned your wheel?  If so, I think I have the same problem.  I don't know when I'm going to fix it, but we'll see...I'm going to have other priorities shortly.
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SweetVW

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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2004, 11:21:05 PM »
Dub, I have noticed my steering wheel does make a noise when I turn right at a slow pace (that's when I notice it).  I have checked out ECS Racing and I am looking at the kit that has everything I need.  Hopefully in about a month I can get this done.  Squaring the finances now.
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RobD

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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2004, 01:12:20 AM »
Quote from: "StarlightB5"
Thanks guys.  I would have to check, but would the tie rods be covered under second owner 50,000 mi. warranty?  Would my suspension upgrade void that?


Dave, I think the only reason I was able to get my tie rods covered was the fact that Brad from Osborn "helped" find a way to cover it under warranty.  It was until the third time looking throught the verbage that they were able to find a way to cover it.  I doubt most shops would cover it.  Since then Brad has dropped off these boards (not sure why).

I'd be happy to try and help at a GTG sometime down the road.

SweetVW

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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2004, 01:15:06 AM »
I noticed that too, I hope something did not sour him to our group.  He seemed like a genuinely nice guy.
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SweetVW

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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2004, 12:53:51 PM »
I am leaning towards the "Meyle Upgraded OE Control Arm & Heavy Duty Tie Rod End Kit W/Hardware" from ECS Tuning.  I need to call them and ask if the "upgraded and heavy duty" will extend the life due to lowered suspension.  I am trying to find out on various sites if anyone has had experiences with them.

*Update, just got off the phone from ECS and they said that it would extend the life due to the build quality of the compnents.  I told the gentleman that I had a lowered suspension and that it may have contributed to the wearing of the control arms and tie rods.  He said that may have been so but he has also seen and worked on numerous cars where poor quality OEM parts contributed to the early demise of suspension components.  The cost to me for this would be $618.00 shipped.
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92UrS4

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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2004, 02:10:35 PM »
I'm drawing a blank, but at Winston's last Garage Day there was a fellow B5er who used hte new heavy duty tie rod ends.  There are pictures in the Gallery.

I have seen them in person and they are solid steele as opposed to steele with a rubber bushing.  The difference will probably be a slightly stiffer ride, but since you are lowered already it is probably a negligible amount.

They look like they are well worth the money.  Sounds like we need another Garage Day here soon for Dave!!!

ColoradoB5

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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2004, 07:26:15 PM »
Quote from: "gietl"
I'm drawing a blank, but at Winston's last Garage Day there was a fellow B5er who used hte new heavy duty tie rod ends.  There are pictures in the Gallery.

I have seen them in person and they are solid steele as opposed to steele with a rubber bushing.  The difference will probably be a slightly stiffer ride, but since you are lowered already it is probably a negligible amount.

They look like they are well worth the money.  Sounds like we need another Garage Day here soon for Dave!!!


Yep that was Blair or XCMTBing.  He changed most of his at my house but one he had trouble with.
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SweetVW

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« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2004, 12:39:32 PM »
Wherever and whenever I have a chance to install these, I would like to have it done prior to the Albuquerque GTG.  It would be nice to see how they perform over a long drive.
If it ain't broke, take it apart and fix it!

jayryan

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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2004, 03:32:12 PM »
My car was making similar noise, but only when I backed up slowly turning right. Now, there are no noises. Go figure.
I hope you get yours fixed soon!
JR
'03 A4 1.8TQM
'68 MG C
'06 4Runner

SweetVW

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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2004, 04:33:08 PM »
Quote from: "TLJR20v"
My car was making similar noise, but only when I backed up slowly turning right. Now, there are no noises. Go figure.
I hope you get yours fixed soon!
JR


I noticed the sounds more when the temperature got above 70-75 degrees.  I also noticed that sounds were not there when the suspension got wet from a car wash or this weather that we have been having.  I have not heard the sounds for about a week now, but look at the temperature and the amount of moisture that we have been having.
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SweetVW

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Nice write up from CB5 member: Aaron Leliaert
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2004, 02:30:56 AM »
I posted on CB5 and among other responces I received an e-mail from Aaron.  Not bad but may be time consuming especially if problems arise.  Any thought from you guys?


"Both jobs are relatively doable if you're good with tools.  Plan for a
weekend if you're slow/methodical.  The tricks I noticed were:

Tie rod ends - the original ones have a screwball rubber bushing to
reduce NVH.  It allows the threaded end that attaches to the steering
rack to spin freely from the ball joint housing.  Have snubnosed
vice-grips handy.  The nut attached to the steering rack was also
frozen - Hit with PB-Blaster in advance and have a torch ready if they
put up a fight.  The new ones probably won't have the bushing, so
you'll get some more road feel as a bonus.

Upper arms - take out the strut assembly, upper arms, and bracket that
connects them all as one unit.  This is done with the larger set of
bolts accessible from the engine compartment.  This allows you to get
the inner bolt of the upper front arms off without cutting them.

Lower arms - the outer attachments (ball joints) are taper/press fit
into the hub assembly.  PB-Blaster these interfaces in advance.  The
fronts ball joints come in from the top, so from the bottom they can be
wacked out with a hammer easily.  There's too much stuff in the way to
get at the rears directly with a hammer.  I didn't have a big prybar,
or pickle fork, so I resorted to a 3/8" drive extension as a hammering
extension.  (Probably the Most Unwise Moment in the operation.)

The inner bolts are clearance limited.  You have to lower the subframe
a little (with the big bolts on the metal brackets that also double as
nice inboard jack points, so don't put jackstands there.)  A 1/2"
ratchet may not fit on the inner arm bolts.  I used a 1/2" breaker bar,
and 6-point socket (18mm?) one one end an an 18mm boxend wrench on the
other.  Get the front as high as you can on jackstands for room to
swing the breaker bar.

All the arms should have the inner bushings tightened when they're in
in the static, normal ride height position.  On the uppers I replaced
one at a time, matching the first w/ the second and vice versa.  On the
lowers I had the car on jackstands, put the wheels back on, and used
the jack (carefully) to raise the wheels to normal height.

Alignment - I counted turns on the tie rod job, and dialed-in center of
steering and toe by feel.  For autoXes I toe things out a little, again
counting turns.  As far as camber goes, on the B5 you can only balance
camber side-to-side by moving the subframe, and mine didn't appear to
move after the control arm job.

The Haynes manual for the B5 is great if you don't already have a copy.
 Way better than the Bentley CD IMO.

Feel free to post some/any/all of this on clubb5 - I prefer to just be
a lurker...

Good luck!

Aaron"
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03Indigo

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« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2004, 02:36:34 AM »
Sounds frightening, but if we follow instructions, then maybe we can get it done.  Honestly, I am a little intimidated by it, just from reading that, but maybe once you actually get in there, it will be easier.

any other input?  Is this something we can get done on the May 1st Garage day?  Any takers?

SweetVW

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« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2004, 10:54:11 AM »
I honestly agree.  But I think it would be some great knowledge to gain by seeing if it can be done.  I bet that the first timing belt change was a bit the same way, now that one makes me nervous!  8O
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Scuba2001

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« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2004, 01:31:17 PM »
I have been doing some reading up on the control arms recently and I have been keeping track of Will's aka The Swami and his posts.  He has decided to use CPP's (Custom Performance Productrs) Upper control arms, sway links, and ECS's heavy duty tie rod ends.  He has said that his alignment is now dead on, and tracking straight.  

Its also been noted that with the repalcement arms from ECS that there is still some major creaking and groans.  I have even talked to Ed Schmove on CB5 and he had a tie rod boot that tore, which was one from the ECSTuning replacement when he replaced his other control arms, etc.

Personally, I think I am going to work over the money for the CPP's upper control arms, sway bar links, and ECS's heavy duty tie rods.  There is a local shop here in SC that specializes in Audi/VW work, and labor is cheap at $58/hr which is hella better then the 70-90/hr at local indy and dealer shops.

HTH,
Steve

SweetVW

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« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2004, 06:59:18 PM »
Thanks to "The Swami"  I have received some more food for thought.

He replied per my PM on ClubB5 requesting info on his setup.

"No problem my friend.. My upper Control Arms are from a company called Custom Performance Products. Instead of rubber bushings, this company uses spherical bearings! The component is built very well, and every once in awhile you have to clean the ends with Ethyl Alcohol and then hit them with some Dry Graphite. (I just installed them, and my tuner does his ends about once a year.) The CPP products also addresses alignment issues with lowered VW's and Audi's.

Here's a website where you can check out their products.

http://www.customperf.com

Sounds interesting, I will have to check it out.  Man, I wish homework back in the day was this fun to research!!!   8O
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Scuba2001

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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2004, 01:31:40 AM »
Anyone think we could talk to www.awe-tuning.com to see if we could get a GB going on these?  I know that I need them here within the next few months (preferably before summer, if possible).  It would be great if we could get a package deal going for these.  Uppers and/or lowers, say a discount for 5 people?

Steve

SweetVW

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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2004, 10:20:11 AM »
After reading Swami's note and visiting New Dimensions website (authorized reseller) and talking to one of their folks, I have decided to only do the upper arms and tie rods.  I think that I will do the same thing that Swami did and actually the cost for the upper control arms is cheaper from ND than AWE.  ND asking price is $550.00, AWE is asking $695.00. I did not notice any difference in package offerings.  It looks like I will stay with the OE heavy-duty tie rod ends from ECS Tuning.  All of this should hopefully correct any alignment issues.

Steve, do you think that we can get that much of a deal from AWE?  Have I overlooked something from the two site offerings?
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Scuba2001

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« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2004, 10:58:54 AM »
Quote from: "StarlightB5"
Steve, do you think that we can get that much of a deal from AWE?  Have I overlooked something from the two site offerings?


Well, I dont think we can get $150 off to even get close to  ND's price.  Maybe someone can contact the great people at New Dimensions and see what can be done.  I know that personally I would just go with the uppers at this point and the HD tie rods.  Can ND source the HD tie rods as well?

Steve

Rusty

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« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2004, 04:02:56 PM »
I am so freakin' jealous that I almost wish my control arms would fail...  8O
i]AEB Engines have better-flowing heads and a real throttle cable...[/i]

Scuba2001

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« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2004, 04:54:33 PM »
Did some investigating today.  AWE Tuning sells a kit that is $695.00, but those I have found are the "Race" Version of the upper links.  Come to find out, the ball joints and rod ends are more "precise."  Here is a quote from New Dimension's site.

Quote
Custom Performance Products
When you need to put some precision alignment adjustability into your Audi or VW, look no further than CPP. We are proud to offer CPP’s array of adjustable camber, toe, and sway bar end-links. Whether you’re an avid club racer or just a serious enthusiast, the ability to make precise alignment adjustments is highly desirable. The factory suspension geometry has a very limited range of adjustment, so CPP has come to the rescue with these adjustable end-links that feature aluminum hexagonal shafts and alloy steel Auroratm brand rod ends. These end links are available in “street” or “race” trim. The street and race links are identical, except the race links use a higher-grade rod end that has a polished smooth nickel plating and tighter machine tolerances (ensuring better uniformity in size). Both rod end types are composed of extremely strong heat-treated alloy steel, and offer PTFE AT-1700 self-lubricating liners rated to 250oF. Both can be used on the street or racetrack.

CPP has ensured that these end-links will fully articulate without any binding or interference at all, unlike the other products on the market. The rod ends are replaceable, which means the end-links can be rebuilt if required (unlike factory links!). Street driven, track abused, and environmentally exposed. CPP end-links can take it.


So, with that said, the $550.00 price is for the street/race version.  Both versions are able to be used on both street and track, but the race versions are just more precise in the manufacturing process.  I am going to email them today to see if we can possibly get a deal going on these.  If anyone is interested, please let me know.

Steve

SweetVW

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« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2004, 05:54:49 PM »
Interesting, Thanks for the insight.

You know I am but I would like to get these installed at Jon's GTG (May 1st) and definitely before the Albuquerque GTG.  I think that there is interest.
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ColoradoB5

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« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2004, 06:12:57 PM »
Mine are now creaking like an old staircase.  Unfortunately, I have the money for these OR brakes and my brake need to come first.
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03Indigo

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« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2004, 07:14:24 PM »
Well, after we hack away at Dave's car, we should be experts...the first is always stressful, but I bet we can do it.  Then when Dub has the cash to sport new CA's, we can set him up with our knowledge and assistance.  My guess is that many people will be having these go bad in the next couple of years as the cars age a bit.

This will be a great learning experience on the 1st...I am kinda getting pumped up about it.  Dave, are you gonna pick up a Haynes? I have the Bently, but someone mentioned that the Haynes is better at descriptions of how to do this.  I figure with both manuals and the info we have gotten from everyone, we should be set.

cheers
jon

SweetVW

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« Reply #27 on: April 13, 2004, 08:26:49 PM »
I am getting psyched up, I plan on ordering the parts tomorrow.  :mrgreen:

I have a manual, but I believe it is Chilton’s.  I will check into the Haynes.  I also grabbed a can of that “PB Blaster” that Aaron mentioned.  I may not need it, but I would rather be over prepared than have to keep running to the auto store every hour.

If this comes off successfully, then bring it on.  I would be happy to help anyone in the future.

Hey Dub, I just noticed your "Skillset exportable" sig.  Please tell me that is related to your tools and not your job!  :?
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ColoradoB5

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« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2004, 11:18:11 AM »
Quote from: "StarlightB5"
Hey Dub, I just noticed your "Skillset exportable" sig.  Please tell me that is related to your tools and not your job!  :?


Hehe, unfortunately, it is related to my job.  They are going to be using people overseas for technical consulting.  It's a shame too, since our customer service will go down.  I've ssaid it before and I'll say it again.  With customer service, SERVICE should be the priority.  If they want to save a buck or two, they should use 1-800-CALL-ATT.
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SweetVW

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« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2004, 11:31:03 AM »
True...True...

I found out that some aspecs of our company's service are going to India.  Not a popular decision, let me tell you.  Look at the whole Dell business tech support fiasco!  I have expiereinced that first hand many times.  Nice people, but it was not a good setup.
If it ain't broke, take it apart and fix it!