Rocky Mountain Club B5

Discussion Forums => Modifications => Topic started by: Kelly on December 17, 2004, 12:01:47 PM

Title: chip questions
Post by: Kelly on December 17, 2004, 12:01:47 PM
i did a few searches and couldnt find anything,

what are some of the local chipping options here in colorado?
price? does it include tuning (if any? )



sorry if this is to broad of a question,
gimme a break im a honda guy that is still learing vw stuff :)

i dont want this to turn into which chip is better, but personal opinions are welcome.

thanks in advance
Title: chip questions
Post by: kraut-sled on December 17, 2004, 12:05:51 PM
Avalon Motorsports offers GIAC and REVO chips here in Denver.

Depending on the engine in your car they run between 495 - 595.

I personally have the REVO softeware and love it.  There are others with it in the club.

303-400-3001 - call em
Title: chip questions
Post by: madigan on December 17, 2004, 12:14:32 PM
This topic has been beaten with a billy club... What I'd suggest is, don't worry about brand name. Search around for a used, already chipped, ECU that's compatible with your car. Any way you go, you'll be wondering why you didn't get a chip sooner... :)

The benefits are that you can swap out your ECU if you ever had to take it to the dealer, you'll save money buying used and you will have no down time...

I bought a chipped ECU on eBay for $280 shipped. That's a pretty good deal and I have a spare ECU to boot.

Just my $0.02...
Title: chip questions
Post by: Colorado_Baja on December 17, 2004, 01:53:00 PM
Quote from: "kraut-sled"
Avalon Motorsports offers GIAC and REVO chips here in Denver.

Depending on the engine in your car they run between 495 - 595.

I personally have the REVO softeware and love it.  There are others with it in the club.

303-400-3001 - call em


I also have had extreamly good luck with my REVO software. Its extreamly reliable, I cant wait untill its time to upgrade to the K04 verson.

Greg
Title: chip questions
Post by: jayryan on December 17, 2004, 02:24:45 PM
I'm not chipped....yet :twisted:
Title: chip questions
Post by: Kelly on December 17, 2004, 04:06:53 PM
Quote from: "kraut-sled"
Avalon Motorsports offers GIAC and REVO chips here in Denver.


i saw thier audi at the last bandimere event, looks nice.
i wanted to stop and talk to them but i had my HRC (Honda Racing Crew) shirt on, probaly woulda looked wierd :P

is Avalon the only vw/audi preformance shop in CO, or is it just the most trusted?


thanks for the replies ima do some reseasrch on the revo chip now.
Title: chip questions
Post by: kraut-sled on December 17, 2004, 04:37:33 PM
Avalon is NOT the only shop in town, just the one I happen to know the most about and have personal dealings with.

Autosport Werks in Broomfield is another local tuner I know of...
Title: chip questions
Post by: Colorado_Baja on December 17, 2004, 06:14:54 PM
Quote from: "Kelly"

thanks for the replies ima do some reseasrch on the revo chip now.


If you havent gotten their allready here is a link.

http://www.revotechnik.com/
Title: chip questions
Post by: RobD on December 18, 2004, 07:30:10 AM
Quote from: "kraut-sled"

Autosport Werks in Broomfield is another local tuner I know of...


ASW is an APR chip distributor and they do a great job as well.  If I remember correctly the Revo software is based on an ex-APR employee starting his own company so theywere very similar at one time.

There is also the Upsolute chip (Winston has that one) as well as the Wetterhauer (Wett chip) Sp?

Madigan had it right with an extra ECU that is chipped.  I too have an extra ecu that I paid about 350 for.  More than Marks but still a great deal considering how much chips run by themselves.

Good luck Kelly

And we won't holf the Honda thing against ya!

Rob
Title: chip questions
Post by: Kelly on December 18, 2004, 05:03:40 PM
Quote from: "RobD"
Quote from: "kraut-sled"

Good luck Kelly
And we won't holf the Honda thing against ya!
Rob


lol,
my honda is my fast car.

built turbo single cam ;)
i have been looking into this and i wish there was something that was user programable (besides revo sps, which is ~$300)

ill look for a ecu thats a good idea.

and thanks for the link, i was searching my ass off, finally found it on the vortex.
Title: chip questions
Post by: Colorado_Baja on December 18, 2004, 05:20:29 PM
Quote from: "Kelly"

lol,
my honda is my fast car.

built turbo single cam ;)
i have been looking into this and i wish there was something that was user programable (besides revo sps, which is ~$300)


Tell me more about your honda.

Oh and here is a helpfull link if you havent allready checked it out I highly recomend it.


http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=450388&postid=11249538#11249538

Greg. :D

EDIT: SPS units used in conjunction with revo software is the only system that I know of that allows the user to tune the software, their may be others but none that I know of... and the step beyond that is stand alone engine management.
Title: chip questions
Post by: DenverPat on December 19, 2004, 12:54:30 PM
FYI~
ASW no longer sells APR.  There were some major problems with the APR software that APR was not accountable for (or so I've heard).
Title: chip questions
Post by: tweakeDub on December 19, 2004, 01:57:31 PM
Kelly-- This is a cross post from VWvortex is it not?  i remeber talking to you about it on the Vortex, Good to see that you found RMCB5, and i still hjope to meet you and check out that Honduh :lol: sometime.

Hopefully you realize that is a joke because your Honduh would smoke me :D
Title: chip questions
Post by: Kelly on December 19, 2004, 07:36:48 PM
Quote
Tell me more about your honda.



Quote
and i still hjope to meet you and check out that Honduh  sometime


 :oops:

i knew it would come..

its ok, trust me in used to it.
although i am not like most honda owners (ricers)
here is a little about my motor:
single cam honda,
bottom end: SRP 9.0-1 pistons, ealge rods, polished crank. ACL bearings. all new oem seals and oil pump.
top end: ARP head studs, stock head, portmatched intake and exhaust ports, y8 manifold (best flowong single cam intake manifold), all new oem seals and water pump/timing belt.
turbo: greddy 19T kit, drag FMIC, turbo XS RFL bov, 2.5" DP to ApexI 2.5" exhaust. boost controller :)
management: Uberdata. basically a free stand alone engine management software. short story behind uberdata, someone cracked the honda ecu code, so someone turned it into a standalone and charged ~$600.it was called HonData.. they chip your ecu and with the software they give you you can fully tune fuel/timing maps. so someone got HonData and crack thier code and posted it on the internet for free.
this is what i use. its FREE user tunable ecu control.

anyway, i hope to have my car tuned again early jan, it WILL be running for this season. im hoping for ~300 whp in a ~2400lb including driver:)
all this was done in my garage.
here is another motor i helped build for a buddy, in his garage
http://www.hondaracingcrew.com/Videos/Jeremy10040919.wmv

enough about my honda.
i am looking for a quick DD.
it seems like it doesnt matter what chip i go with, they all claim close to the same power.
i want to find a chip that does more that turn the boost up and add fuel. i want a chip that is tuned, where timing is taken into consideration, part throttle maps are correct as well as wot maps.

i would like a chip that when i move to ohio (maybe next year) i will be able to adjust it for altitude there.

thanks for the link, i have been reading alot of it, it makes my head spin, all this new talk... vws are ALOT more complicated then hondas)

and i did ask about this on vortex, and i kinda got a response, but i wanted something from more people especally people that are local and understand altitude tuning.

thanks for everyones help, ill continue reading and tryin to figure out what chip is best for me.

it feels wierd to just accept a generic maps from "insert chip company here" and call it a day. all cars are different, altitude is different... and to top it all off none of them allow user tunability..
i dont know how the vw community accepts this... (maybe i am spoiled in the "honda world"

oh well.
thanks again for everyones help. i hope i didnt offend anyone here, that wasnt my intention. i wish it was as easy as hondas :P

if anyone has anymore info please post it up, im leaving my options open, as i learn more about the vw stuff
thanks again, and sorry no cliff notes will be given :)
Title: chip questions
Post by: Kelly on December 19, 2004, 10:04:07 PM
edit: the white car was driven to the track, slicks slapped on, raced and driven home.
this car resides in the springs and is daily driven,

see, not all honda guys are ricers. :)


1 more question.

who has what chip here?
how do you like it?
Title: chip questions
Post by: DenverPat on December 19, 2004, 10:08:41 PM
I think people on this board have just about every kind of chip.  I have yet to hear of anyone being unhappy with their chip, with the possible exception of APR.  There have been some problems with them blowing up turbos quickly, although I don't really know if it's a freak, one-time thing or a known issue.  Hell, I'm on my third turbo with MTM, which is supposed to be one of the most conservative/durable.  Then again, I do have 140K miles and track the car.  Also, the current turbo has only been in there a few months.
Title: chip questions
Post by: Kelly on December 19, 2004, 10:15:13 PM
is blowing turbos something that i can expect with a chipped ecu?
Title: chip questions
Post by: tweakeDub on December 19, 2004, 10:30:46 PM
Quote from: "Kelly"
is blowing turbos something that i can expect with a chipped ecu?



I wouldn't expect that to happen to you, the chances of that happening are very low, IMOP I would do any company but Nospeed(neuspeed), I think that thier chip is junk, especially if you are lookiong for a big difference. It is the cheapest chip out there for a reason.


Dont mean to offend anybody out there with Neuspeed, these are just my opinions :D
Title: chip questions
Post by: Kelly on December 19, 2004, 10:34:29 PM
im thinkin revo due to the fact that i will be able to tune it with the sps3.

anyone wanna give me a ride in thier revo'd passat?

anyone wanna tell me why not to get revo?
anyone wanna tell me why to get revo?
Title: chip questions
Post by: Colorado_Baja on December 19, 2004, 10:42:48 PM
I can give you a ride in my Revo Golf, not exactly the same as a passat my car is a bit lighter but you will get the general idea. You will see all the reasons that you need revo :)
Title: chip questions
Post by: Kelly on December 19, 2004, 11:15:33 PM
when ever you are available im down.

have you had any problems with it?
did you get it done locally?
did they flash your ecu and send you on your way or is there continuing support?

do you know if it is possible for them to change the map they put on you ecu? ie.. meet me at the dyno and get  some tweeks done to the map they are gonna put on?
Title: chip questions
Post by: Colorado_Baja on December 20, 2004, 12:25:58 AM
I work nights and sleep days so my hours are kinda wack, any time on the weekend im usually around.

OK here is my speech about revo, sorry it will probly be pretty long...

The only problem that I ran into was an airbag light tripped when they flashed the ecu witch they promptly removed with their vag com. So no real problems to speak of.
I got it done at Dubs Along The Rockies last year (a local show here in the springs) by Avalon Motorsports, as far as I know they are the only Revo dealer in the state, so plan on a trip to Denver to get flashed. http://www.avalonmotorsports.com/

As far as support go's im not really sure, im sure that Zev over their at Avalon motorsports would take care of you if you ran into problems, but by getting Revo you can also look to them for support they have forums on their website, here is a link...
http://pub219.ezboard.com/brevotechnik

Now then as far as tuning your software. Really you donít even need a dyno all you need is your Revo'd ecu an sps3 and a vag com. With the vag com you can see weather or not the ecu is pulling timeing and boost. When the ecu pulls timing and/or boost you should select a lower setting on your sps unit. Im sure that dyno tuning is the most effective method, but for tuning on the fly you cant really beat it. Iím sure that what I know about this is just a fraction of what you can do with the system.

Post up if you have any more questions hope this was the info you were looking for.

Greg
Title: chip questions
Post by: DenverPat on December 20, 2004, 09:07:50 AM
Oh, and I've also heard of a couple Neuspeed cars blowing turbos in just a few thousand miles, just like APR.  Who knows, maybe it was just coincidence, though.  Food for thought.
Title: chip questions
Post by: shummer on December 20, 2004, 09:14:55 AM
Does it seem like APR and it's newer offerings (> 2002) are suspect?
Title: chip questions
Post by: DenverPat on December 20, 2004, 09:16:58 AM
Those are the ones I've heard of problems with.  Jon would likely know more about the details.
Title: chip questions
Post by: kraut-sled on December 20, 2004, 09:21:10 AM
I have REVO in my B5.5 - you have PM.
Title: chip questions
Post by: jayryan on December 20, 2004, 10:08:05 AM
FWIW: I've heard about many cars blowing turbo's with Revo which is the reason I was shocked when so many people started touting REVO's graces.

In all honesty, I don't really think it matter's who makes your chip. You're pushing more boost through your turbo and that's it. All of them boast relatively identical gains and if it's different, your butt probably won't know it or unless you frequent Bandimere.

In my chip researching, I've talked to owners of every single chip out there and everyone's happy with their respective setup's. I'm going Neuspeed. I haven't heard anything bad from anyone who has it and it's going to be a little easier on my car than APR or GIAC and I can't flashload so REVO's out anyway.

Oh yeah, and did I mention it's stupid cheap? Yes, you get what you pay for in most cases but I've done my research and feel confident. Why spend an extra 3 Franklin's for 5 horses and a different brand? I know what I want out of my car anyway.

Chips go through their phases of what's hot and what's not. They prove themselves. And honestly, I've not heard anything super negative about any of 'em. Just quirks and differences here and there.  :wink:
Title: chip questions
Post by: Chas on December 20, 2004, 11:37:15 AM
I have a '99 1.8T Passat with APR v3.0 software on one of my ECUs. The other ECU is stock. www.goapr.com

I've had the APR software since late 2000 and have never had any issue with it. The car is fairly well tweaked with lots of mods that enhance the chip. I see peak boost spikes of up to 18psi all the time and sometimes even 19psi on a good day! And I'm laying down good numbers to back it up. But I'm not looking to have the absolute highest output either. I need this car to get me to work when I need it to get me to work.

Reliable power is the phrase I like.

I believe the question of whether a given chip tuner is more or less likely to blow up your turbo is silly. They are all doing the same thing to the ECU. Some are more conservative with the tuning and some push it a little harder. But basically they are all doing the same thing. There is no magic happening here.

It is gernerally understood that APR and GIAC create the most HP and torque with thier products. But that doesn't directly corrolate to blown turbos.

I think for that answer you need to ask some serious questions of those that have blown turbos. What were they doing when it grenaded? How do they drive on a daily basis? And if they answer hounestly, I bet you'll find that the answer isn't which chip or tuner, but driving habits.

Sorry to be so brutal, and I hope I didn't piss anyone off, but the truth shall set you free!
Title: chip questions
Post by: kraut-sled on December 20, 2004, 11:47:34 AM
Quote from: "Chas"


I think for that answer you need to ask some serious questions of those that have blown turbos. What where they doing when it grenaded? How do they drive on a daily basis? And if they answer hounestly, I bet you'll find that the answer isn't which chip or tuner, but driving habits.

Sorry to be so brutal, and I hope I didn't piss anyone off, but the truth shall set you free!


I agree, there are many contributing factors to blown turbo's.  I have a leak in the exhaust gaskit of my turbo and I do not think the software had anything to do with that.  My car drives fine and there is no noticable loss of performance (although I am sure there is a little bit of loss, just not noticable).

Research is key, not just the chip, but the engine mods as a whole and the effects they will have in addition to software tuning.
Title: chip questions
Post by: jayryan on December 20, 2004, 12:15:23 PM
Quote from: "kraut-sled"
Quote from: "Chas"


I think for that answer you need to ask some serious questions of those that have blown turbos. What where they doing when it grenaded? How do they drive on a daily basis? And if they answer hounestly, I bet you'll find that the answer isn't which chip or tuner, but driving habits.

Sorry to be so brutal, and I hope I didn't piss anyone off, but the truth shall set you free!


I agree, there are many contributing factors to blown turbo's.  I have a leak in the exhaust gaskit of my turbo and I do not think the software had anything to do with that.  My car drives fine and there is no noticable loss of performance (although I am sure there is a little bit of loss, just not noticable).

Research is key, not just the chip, but the engine mods as a whole and the effects they will have in addition to software tuning.


Finally, some real posts. :D
Title: chip questions
Post by: DenverPat on December 20, 2004, 04:33:01 PM
Chas has some good points.  Driving style, warm-up, cool-down and oil type all add into the equation.  Keep in mind Chas knows more than I do when it comes to this, but I'd be willing to bet there are some differences in chips when it comes to the air/fuel ratio.  I've heard some run richer than others.  Don't know if that's true, but it's just what I've heard.  Anyway, I think it is likely that some tuners create more power by running their cars closer to stoich at the risk of getting the turbo too hot.  Some more conservative programs will run the car a little richer, creating less power, but keeping the turbo cooler, which in turn increases longevity.  I doubt there's a huge difference between chips, but maybe enough to make a difference.  Chas, your thoughts?
Title: chip questions
Post by: Chas on December 21, 2004, 12:39:04 AM
Quote from: "Denver Pat"
Anyway, I think it is likely that some tuners create more power by running their cars closer to stoich at the risk of getting the turbo too hot.  Some more conservative programs will run the car a little richer, creating less power, but keeping the turbo cooler, which in turn increases longevity.


Well the fact of the matter is that the A/F mixture has bigger effect on the internals of the engine before it affects the turbo. A/F mix affects the combustion chamber temps first. The turbo sees super heated exhaust gases that in turn spin the hot side wheels and eventually that will have some detrimental factor on the turbo. But before the turbo melts down in a situation like that, I would think the engine (valves and piston heads) will be a melted glop of crap.

And you know it wouldn't be benificial to any chip tuner to run a street car that close to melt down all the time. Eventually their reputation would catch up to them. But I do think that some like to make as much HP as possible, with in reason. Meaning that they wouldn't ever tune a chip that is sold to the general public that is so highly strung as to melt the engine down after a few hard runs. We aren't driving purpose built race cars here. I think the opposite is true. There is a big margine for error left in by all the tuners. Some leave more in, some don't.

So it still comes down to driving habits and maintanence. If you're going to constantly have your foot into your throttle and give the car no chance to cool down, then sure, the KKK turbos aren't going to last. Remember, they are still only running a 4mm, oil coated shaft to spin all those RPMs and pump all that air. Fresh, clean oil is the best thing you can do for your 1.8T.  8)

Look at the guys that tune high HP Hondas, they never use a KKK turbo. It's always a Garret ball bearing unit or something else of simular quality.  :roll:
Title: chip questions
Post by: Kelly on December 28, 2004, 02:19:52 PM
Quote from: "Denver Pat"
Chas has some good points.  Driving style, warm-up, cool-down and oil type all add into the equation.  Keep in mind Chas knows more than I do when it comes to this, but I'd be willing to bet there are some differences in chips when it comes to the air/fuel ratio.  I've heard some run richer than others.  Don't know if that's true, but it's just what I've heard.  Anyway, I think it is likely that some tuners create more power by running their cars closer to stoich at the risk of getting the turbo too hot.  Some more conservative programs will run the car a little richer, creating less power, but keeping the turbo cooler, which in turn increases longevity.  I doubt there's a huge difference between chips, but maybe enough to make a difference.  Chas, your thoughts?



i agree with this.
this is in some way what i have a problem with.
there is one program for every car...
to me (comin from the honda world) this is unacceptable. every car is different, every motor is diiferent.
i could understand a good "basemap" and the you can tune it to where you like it (whether you want to push the limits or just leave it)
but $500 for a "generic" map (to me) is crazy, becuase even then you have to spend another ~$350 to tune it to where you want it.

i dont know maybe the popularity of honda has led me to become spoiled..


anyway, im still looking at chipping my b5, but any chip that goes in there WILL be tunable, as i will be leaving altitude probaly next year..

thanks to everyone that has helped.
Title: chip questions
Post by: jayryan on December 28, 2004, 02:51:39 PM
Kelly, you really should talk to Rusty on all this. I think you guys would both have alot to discuss regarding this and he has probably the most complete handle and understanding of the 1.8T engine than anybody I know.

He could shed HUGE light on not so much chipping as tuning the engine. He likes much more tunability than just a chip will provide. Anyway, PM and see what he says...I don't know what his holiday schedule is, but he pops in fairly regularly.
Title: chip questions
Post by: Kelly on December 28, 2004, 07:06:03 PM
cool thanks.
although i dont know everything about tuning, i am learning alot from a buddy.
he went to EFI-101, its a tuning class put on buy Ben Strader.
he tuned his own car (the white car in the video) and hes is teaching me how to une my honda :)
ill pm him and see what he says.
Title: chip questions
Post by: RobD on December 29, 2004, 06:05:24 AM
Quote from: "jayryan"
Kelly, you really should talk to Rusty on all this. I think you guys would both have alot to discuss regarding this and he has probably the most complete handle and understanding of the 1.8T engine than anybody I know.

He could shed HUGE light on not so much chipping as tuning the engine. He likes much more tunability than just a chip will provide. Anyway, PM and see what he says...I don't know what his holiday schedule is, but he pops in fairly regularly.


JR - that's just what i was thinking as I read this post.  The more i read I thought, " Kelley should be in discussions with Rusty."  

Rusty's car is not shipped but runs some strong numbers due to his own tuning of the air/fuel.  He's done a number of things to get the same results as chipping.  Rusty is in Alb NM and is a great guy.  Hopefully he can give you a hand at tuning your ride.

On a side note.  I have been running the APR program for over a year and have not had any problems with the chip.  I have not heard about many people having problems with APR but I don't frequent many different forums.  I change my oil often and make sure I give it a chance to properly cool after "getting into it."

Good luck with your search Kelley.

Rob
Title: chip questions
Post by: jayryan on December 29, 2004, 07:19:23 AM
Kelly, I should also mention that Rusty is going to be working on timing tuning now that he has is A/F control tuning down. Trust me, it's cool. It's beyond my abilities for the most part but VERY cool.
His numbers tuned and unchipped are very close to running an 0.8bar chip.

I know what everyone says, but I plan on running the Neuspeed 1.0bar/5bar FPR setup this spring. I've not heard any complaints from those that have it. And if ithey got rid of it, it was to get a more aggresive program.
Title: chip questions
Post by: Kelly on December 29, 2004, 12:14:10 PM
i pm'd him,
hopefully he will be able to help me out.

thanks for everyones help.
Title: chip questions
Post by: Kelly on January 04, 2005, 09:54:41 AM
rusty can you look though some of this and see if you would like to add anything.
Title: chip questions
Post by: Rusty on January 04, 2005, 11:27:38 AM
Quote from: "jayryan"
...His numbers tuned and unchipped are very close to running an 0.8bar chip...

Um, excuuuuusssse me, but I'm putting up numbers comparable to a 1.0 bar chip, since, after all, I am running 1.0 bar...

I have some comments and Kelly and I are already PM'ing.  But I gotta go to lunch right now.

One thing I can say right off the bat is that your concern over alititude tuning is unfounded.  These cars compensate for altitude all by themselves.  Still haven't figured out totally what the baro pressure programming does, but I suspect it modifies lambda regulation and perhaps the load tables.  It definitely affects timing, but I do not know if it affects it directly, or if the timing changes are an indirect effect of the lamda reg and load tables.

I've got a sh*tload of info over on ClubB5, but all the links are broken and there's no easy fix because the thread numbers have changed.  Grrr...
Title: chip questions
Post by: jayryan on January 04, 2005, 11:34:14 AM
Quote from: "Rusty"
Quote from: "jayryan"
...His numbers tuned and unchipped are very close to running an 0.8bar chip...

Um, excuuuuusssse me, but I'm putting up numbers comparable to a 1.0 bar chip, since, after all, I am running 1.0 bar...


 :D As I said..very close...you just happen to be above 0.8bar that's all..it's within 0.2bar... :wink:

I'm just trying to help out here... :roll:
Title: chip questions
Post by: Rusty on January 04, 2005, 02:24:54 PM
hee-hee!

Yeah, and what's amazing is how easy the first 0.8 bar was, and how damn hard that last 0.2 has been.

Oh yeah, and another thing about altitude.  I have had several stages of tune here at 5300-5800 ft.  I take many road trips to sea level.  At each stage of tune, the car ran like a bat-out-o-hell at sea level.
Title: chip questions
Post by: kraut-sled on January 04, 2005, 04:15:17 PM
Quote from: "Rusty"
the car ran like a bat-out-o-hell at sea level.


I can attest to this.  Man did we have fun in the cannyon outside Gilroy, CA (The Garlic Capital of the world) :D  :D
Title: chip questions
Post by: Rusty on January 05, 2005, 10:27:30 AM
Quote from: "kraut-sled"
I can attest to this.  Man did we have fun in the cannyon outside Gilroy, CA (The Garlic Capital of the world) :D  :D

Oh, that was fun!  Boy, was it fragrant...
Title: chip questions
Post by: Rusty on January 05, 2005, 10:34:20 AM
I've started PM'ing Kelly about this stuff, but I think I'll move the discussion here for more input and to edumecate more people:

Quote from: "Kelly"
Quote from: "Rusty"
What kind of car do you have?  DBW is very different (and easier) approach than DBC.


im not sure of all the codes yet, but i have a 2001 b5 (not b5.5) 1.8t 5speed, no 4 motion.

hopefully that is the info you need, if not ill try to get you a better answer.
thanks
kelly

So that means you should have an AUG or ATW engine code, I think.

The engine code is stamped on a boss at the driver's side front of the cylinder head, peeking out from the valve cover.  Right there where the camshaft position sensor is plugged in.

The caveat here is that I have an AEB engine, so my firsthand experience is limited to that engine.  But in tuning the AEB, I've come across other info that I can share with you, just remember this is second-hand:

Step 1) You need a VAG-COM (or equivalent) to monitor fuel trims, knock retard, fuel injector duty cycle, and O2 sensor voltages to make sure you don't melt your engine.

Step 2) Since you don't have an AEB (the earliest engine code), you're in pretty good shape to get some more power, simply, without major mods.  The AEB's had tiny injectors (210cc) and a duty cycle limit of 16.32 msec, so fuel was a big problem.  The later engines have 270cc injectors and a duty cycle limit of 25 msec IIRC.  So right off the bat, you can buy a $35 mechanical boost controller, hook it in-line with your N75 valve, and raise the boost to probably 12 lbs without any fueling or limp issues.  I recommend the Dawes MBC (www.dawesdevices.com) because its internal components are lightweight leading to faster reaction times.  But the Boostvalve (www.boostvalve.com) is hellaciously convenient because it has an adjustment knob.

Going beyond this, the engine code needs to be known.  Need especially to know if you have a MAP sensor, but I imagine that you do.  Assuming you do:

Step 3) IIRC you can get up to 15 lbs boost before you hit any kind of overboost/limp mode. Past 12 lbs, increase it by one psi, drive and monitor, increase again, etc.  I've found that it's best to drive the car normally for about three days between changes.  Seems like that's how long it takes for the ECU (fuel and timing trims, etc) to fully adapt. Once you start hitting limp mode, you need a diode on the MAP sensor to prevent limp mode due to sensed overboost.  You'll still get proper fuel because of MAF (IIRC).  Consult the 1.8t forum on Vortex for proper diode to use.

Step 4) With the MAP sensor clamped, you can run ridiculously high boost, but with higher boost you'll need larger injectors and a larger MAF sensor housing to go along with them.  There are some guys on Vortex running 20-25 lbs boost, with stock ECU, a boost controller, a clamped MAP sensor, larger injectors, and larger MAF.  Oh yeah, and a larger turbo.  The K03 on our passats is only good to about 15-17 lbs, and even then it's waaay out of its efficiency range.  In cold weather it's OK, but in hot weather at our altitude the K03 sucks.  IMO, FMIC is required with the K03 above 12-13 lbs boost.  My car ran great on 12 lbs boost on the hottest (105-110) summer days.  But when I went to 15 lbs it just died in the heat due to timing retard.

BTW the 1.8T tech forum on Vortex is a great resource for tinkering with these engines, if you have the patience to slog through all the immature egomaniacal crap.  I ran out of patience...

That's your tuning path in a nutshell.  Know your engine code before we go further.

BTW, note that this isn't really "tuning" in the sense of adjusting things in your ECU for what you want.  Rather, it's the fine art of taking everything the stock ECU will give you.  Just "raising the boost" isn't optimal, but then as you are so aware, a chip isn't optimal either.  I'd rather pay $35 for non-optimal than $350-$500.
Title: chip questions
Post by: Rusty on January 05, 2005, 11:31:02 AM
Quote from: "Kelly"
...i am looking for a quick daily driver.
i am not tryin to push the envelope, my fast car will remain my civic for now.
what your talking about kinda sounds familiar in the honda world we call it "the hack".
ill look at my head to see which code i got.
ill read over your info a few more times and look around on the vortex. hopefully i will be able to understand it.

approx. how much would everything cost?
or how much hp/tq can i expect?
would it be more cost efficient for me to just chip my ecu?
thanks again.
kelly

Well, if you aren't trying to push the envelope, then I think the $35 boost controller (plus a few bucks for silicone hose) is your ticket.  Again, need engine code (hence injector size), but I am nine-nines certain that you can run 12 lbs/0.8 bar boost no problem no addtional mods or cost.  Compare to the 0.8-bar Neuspeed chip @$200.  HP/TQ?  Not sure, but very similar to the Neuspeed 0.8-bar chip.  This will give you a very quick daily driver.  If I didn't track my car and have to deal with C5 Vettes on the straights (they slow me down in the corners but I can't pass them on the straights), I would have stopped at 12 lbs - the car really ran great for all normal driving, and I easily kept up with 1-bar chipped cars on our GTG drives.

What the chip(s) would give you extra is this:
1) Raising the rev limiter to 7000+
2) Removal of the 130 mph top-speed governor
3) Timing changes

My opinions:
1) I'll keep the rev limit at factory.  I plan on 300,000 miles out of this engine.  I HAVE to get that many to make it worth all the money I've put into it LOL...
2) I don't have the skill necessary to drive a car faster than 90-100, much less 130...
3) The factory timing algorithm is going to advance the timing as far as possible during steady-state cruise anyway.  The only possible benefit from timing adustments is:
3a) Advance timing during high-load, low-boost for quicker off-the-line acceleration - but I've heard too many chipped cars ping, they aren't getting any benefit because this triggers knock retard
3b) Retard timing to allow higher boost levels - this is somewhat self-defeating, no?  This gets into the AEB fuel limitations.  Damn, I could write a book...
Title: chip questions
Post by: jayryan on January 05, 2005, 12:04:38 PM
Rusty, you should write a book ;)

I keep sending this stuff to Winston to throw in the Tech forum :P

FYI: $25 for the Dawes Basic MBC 8O