Rocky Mountain Club B5

Discussion Forums => Modifications => Topic started by: jayryan on January 27, 2005, 09:23:55 AM

Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on January 27, 2005, 09:23:55 AM
As most of you know, the AEB engine comes with itsie bitsie tiny weeny 210cc fuel injectors.

Rusty's the pioneer with adjusting A/F to take advantage of the stock ECU's full potential. He's upgraded from the larger 252cc to 310's and now his current 440cc injectors. Chas also did the same upgrade to 252cc injectors, but reverted back to the stock injectors due to incompatibility and rough running with his chip programming.

Thus, I am now the keeper of Rusty's old 252cc fuel injectors. These are Ford Denso injectors with a different spray pattern than the stock Bosch injectors. This makes the idle rough. Rusty has assured me it will run fine though. As I said, Chas had further issues due to his chip program, but Rusty stated that if wasn't racing, he would have stuck with the 252's at least that's what he said in the past. I'll bet he'll keep his 440's though :wink:

These 252's will be going in on Sunday with Mark's help. Along with this, I will be increasing the boost via Dawes Devices Hybrid Manual Boost Controller installed inline with my wastegate and N75. Most of you know how a MBC works so I won't get into that.

The reason I'm opting for this setup is that if I can maximize my current programming, I'm going to try and do that. I've got some room to move on my ECU. Projected boost is 12lbs. = 0.8bar. Ironically, for about $200 more, I'd get the same with a chip, possibly a little more. My car is not a race car, but could use some more boost. So I think (hope rather ;) ) that until something goes out, this will be perfectly fine for me.

I will let you know how it feels and I'll want to log some numbers and compare to Rusty and Chas' so I know I'm in the ballpark. Plus since they're number geeks, I know they'll want to see it. I'm going to dyno this spring at some point after I get a couple other things done.

One of the most exciting parts about this for me is that after two more engine mods, my peformance modifying will be complete. So I'll post on Sunday night or Monday how things feel. This will be fun. And just for the record, since I put in my snub mount, my car vibrates anyway and I like it, so maybe the rough idle'll be kinda cool :P

Thanks Rusty for the injectors and all the info I scrounged up on CB5. Ditto for you too Chas. Your info when you did this was very informative as well.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: 92UrS4 on January 27, 2005, 09:26:56 AM
Looking forward to the results, and pictures of your grin when you achieve that boost.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: the_russian on January 27, 2005, 08:42:56 PM
Good luck with your set up. Isn't 12 psi is where our computer cuts out?... caz i'm running MBC with stock injectors pushing about 10-11 psi but if i try to go higher it cuts fuel. For some reason not a lot of people like to pu MBC on our engines even though you can get power outputs close to the chipped cars for way less money...Go figure... Well good luck.

Alex
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on January 28, 2005, 05:10:15 AM
Alex, Yes. You're right. 9-10 without injectors is the max until it starts cutting fuel. I can push 12 with the bigger injectors.

If I go bigger, fuel will be cut because the ECU's reading incorrect A/F ratios. I'll have to start modding the MAF and go with a rising rate/adjustable FPR like Rusty's Cartech to correct leaning out on top and taking full advantage of 310cc+ injectors.

I took these shots with my phone, sorry they're dark:
(http://www.rmcb5.com/modules/gallery2/d/12061-3/mbc.jpg)
(http://www.rmcb5.com/modules/gallery2/d/12065-3/injectors.jpg)
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: the_russian on January 28, 2005, 09:50:18 AM
Well good luck with it let me know how it goes.

Alex
Title: Re: MBC and Bigger Injectors
Post by: gragravar on January 28, 2005, 10:05:50 AM
Quote from: "jayryan"
One of the most exciting parts about this for me is that after two more engine mods, my peformance modifying will be complete.


JR this sounds like fun, but I don't believe you will be complete with your modding after this.  Admit it, it is a sickness we all suffer from.

let us know how it goes.  it sounds like a worthwhile change.
Title: Re: MBC and Bigger Injectors
Post by: jayryan on January 28, 2005, 10:30:20 AM
Quote from: "gragravar"
Quote from: "jayryan"
One of the most exciting parts about this for me is that after two more engine mods, my peformance modifying will be complete.


JR this sounds like fun, but I don't believe you will be complete with your modding after this.  Admit it, it is a sickness we all suffer from.

let us know how it goes.  it sounds like a worthwhile change.


I clarifyed it..I've got two other things on the list and then something's going to have to break :wink:
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on January 31, 2005, 06:24:18 AM
I have boost :twisted:
I have intake noise
I have DV noise
I have 13lbs.
I have no chip :twisted:
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: coveredbytheblood on January 31, 2005, 09:02:07 AM
Nice.  So, how much did the alternate route cost you?
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on January 31, 2005, 09:07:36 AM
$55 + your choice injectors.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: madigan on January 31, 2005, 09:35:12 AM
Pictures

Injectors (210 vs. 252, no difference in size. It's all in the spray pattern)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/233533/IMGP0066(Small).JPG)
Injectors installed (Look how shiny.)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/233533/IMGP0068(Small).JPG)
Custom MBC (it might look funny, but hey - it works!)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/233533/IMGP0084(Small).JPG)
Installed MBC (Sweet!)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/233533/IMGP0085(Small).JPG)
10lbs of boost! (This is before it was tweaked to give 13lbs.!)
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/233533/IMGP0086(Small).JPG)
Random gargage shot.
(http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/233533/IMGP0075(Small).JPG)
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: the_russian on January 31, 2005, 11:16:58 AM
Lokking good man. Hey do you have any problems not holding boost at high RPM. Caz my car starting at about 4500-5000 RPM will drop back to stock... May be it's the MBC caz mine is ghetto homemade. Are you gonna get it DYNOed. You should VAG it and see what kind of power you squeezing out.

Alex
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: ColoradoB5 on January 31, 2005, 11:30:41 AM
Sweet JR, congrats!  Make suyre to reset you ECU so it can relearn the new setup.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on January 31, 2005, 11:33:42 AM
I do plan on getting dyno'd at some point. There's a couple other things I wanted to do before that happens. I also want to VAG and see how my numbers are coming out the the larger injectors.

I'm at 13lbs. from about 2700-4500 or so and then it's 12lbs. to about 5500. That's just an educated guess at best. I don't have stock boost unless I'm barely hitting the gas. I'll pay more attention the next couple days after it settles in and let you know.

Winston: I'm going to see how it adapts over the next few days. I'm sure it'll settle down. I'll expect I'll be tweaking over the next couple weeks. I had it set a bit higher, but the car just won't do more than about 12-13lbs.

It builds boost so quickly that I have to have feather foot when just cruising, otherwise I'll let off the gas and get jolted. BTW: I just took it out again and spiked at 14 :twisted:
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Chas on February 01, 2005, 12:43:19 AM
Take it slow JR. It's better to creep up to the max with this kind of set up then to just leap up to it and then pick up the pieces of a broken turbo or worse.

Peaking at 13 and then having settle back down to 12 or lower is quite normal for our cars. Mine will hit 18psi evry day but as it approaches redline the boost tapers off to around 11-13psi before I shift. that's just the way our ECUs were designed.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on February 01, 2005, 05:43:41 AM
Yup, Chas, I agree. After that night, I backed it down to around 11-12. I spent most of the ride home yesterday tweaking as my car figured out what I did to it.

So...

I hold at 11 and will get up to 12 right away.
6000rpm is right where I taper off to 8-9. I believe when I shift circa 5500, I get the most bang.

Since yesterday, my car will not let me go over 12; it starts bucking and cutting fuel ie. limp.
On the upside, I see little to no spike and little to no boost fall off in the higher rpm.

That, I'm very happy with. It spools quickly, smoothly and virtually immediately with only the smallest amount of lag.

Here's something that really opened my eyes to how detuned our engines are from the factory:
When Mark and I first took the car out, I forgot to plug the N75 back in. I was boosting at 5, spiking at 6. Those are the same numbers I had when I was stock. :?
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: DenverPat on February 01, 2005, 08:18:06 AM
FYI~
According to the dyno at MAC Autosport, my AEB makes 295 ft-lbs of torque and 245 hp.  I've retained the stock injectors and run a 5-bar FPR.  I don't know much about this, but there seems to be some kind of misconception about injectors here.  I get the feeling some people think this kind of power is not possible with the origianal injectors.  What's up, am I not getting something here?
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on February 01, 2005, 08:42:11 AM
I refer this to Rusty so nobody else has to read me being an idiot...and my damn back hurts too.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: DenverPat on February 01, 2005, 08:46:09 AM
What do you mean, "Rusty experimented with different FPR/Injector combos and found this to be the most effective."  In what way is this the most effective?
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on February 01, 2005, 09:29:22 AM
Rusty's on the boards, maybe he'll lay it down. It has to do with how soon you hit the injector ceilings. I think it hits later with larger injectors allowing less lean at WOT...I'm a rookie in all this but it's wonderfully fascinating.

...this yogurt I'm having is nasty...
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 01, 2005, 09:31:48 AM
Quote
The AEB engine also calculates A/F by reading from O2 and Fuel sensors and not direct fuel maps which makes chip programming a bit harder than the later cars.

Quote
a 5bar FPR and stock injectors is the same as 440cc injectors and a 2bar FPR or thereabouts (Rusty's setup).

Quote
...This is maintained by the ECU's reading of o2 voltage and air/fuel.

Quote
On the stock programming, if the car sees too much fuel vs. o2, it will cut the fuel (limp) and vice versa, but it can only add so much on stock injectors. Add more air (COAM etc.) add more fuel and the ECU will not see a problem and will allow more boost (based on RPM- hence fuel).

Quote
That's one reason why the AEB's are harder to program than the other cars. We don't have set "fuel maps" we can just manipulate.


JR, for God's sake, please... just...  STOP!!!!  None of these statements have even the remotest connection to reality. *poke**grin*

Pat, I suspect that the reason your AEB works well on stock injectors at 5 bar is that, since you have an Owdy, they must be larger than the stock injectors on a VW AEB.  Ours are 210cc.  Do you know what yours are?  Or, your Audi isn't subject to the 16.32 msec injector ceiling that our VW's are.  The Euro VW's don't have this 16.32 ceiling, only the American ECU's.

There is no such thing as "limp" on an AEB.  You can get overboost, which cuts the fuel and causes bucking, even though there is no charge-pressure sensor.  Here's a link that explains it all: Charge Pressure Codes on AEB?! (http://www.passatworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125890)

The engine cannot calculate A/F from reading O2 and fuel sensors.  What fuel sensors?  Did you just make this stuff up? (Please take all this with a sense of gentle friendly ribbing, like I'd be doing if we were all sitting around drinking beer and talking to each other in 3rd person...)

AEB's are not any harder to program than any other car.  They use the same fuel maps as any other car.  The chip tuners can't get as much HP out of an AEB as easily as other (DBW) engine codes because of the small injectors and 16.32 msec ceiling.

All that said, JR, welcome to the heretical world of no-chip tuning.  Just please don't spread the gospel 'til you have it right. :)
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 01, 2005, 09:33:58 AM
Quote from: "Denver Pat"
What do you mean, "Rusty experimented with different FPR/Injector combos and found this to be the most effective."  In what way is this the most effective?


I don't know what JR meant... LOL!!!
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on February 01, 2005, 09:34:04 AM
Dammit- so much for the shit I read on CB5...it makes sense in my head at least....speaking of beer....
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: DenverPat on February 01, 2005, 09:35:43 AM
Pat's not sure if his stock injectors are 210 or 310 or gamma alpha beta.  Like Pat said, Pat doesn't know crap about this.  So Rusty, are you saying there's possibly a difference between the AEB they put in the A4 compared to the AEB in the Passat?
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 01, 2005, 09:42:49 AM
Hey, Pat - according to the latest dyno I have from you, you're running

225 WTQ @ 5000
187 WHP @ 6000

Is this still valid data?  And what boost are you running to get this?  I've been using your very nice dyno as a target, and I've pretty much nailed it!  Check out what I'm running with 15 lbs:
(http://home.comcast.net/~rragan7540/Passat/dynos/BaroModAfter.jpg)
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 01, 2005, 09:47:44 AM
Quote from: "Denver Pat"
Pat's not sure if his stock injectors are 210 or 310 or gamma alpha beta.  Like Pat said, Pat doesn't know crap about this.  So Rusty, are you saying there's possibly a difference between the AEB they put in the A4 compared to the AEB in the Passat?

LOL!!!  Rusty is saying that he doesn't see a snowball's chance in hell that you are putting up those kind of numbers with 210cc injectors and a 16.32 msec injector duty cycle limit.

You can test the 16.32 limit easy.  Do WOT from 2000 rpm to redline inroubles 4th gear, while logging block 002.  Does it peg at 16.32?

The injectors could be easy - go look at them, if they are dark green they are 210cc, if another color they're something else.  If you have a Bentley for your car, it will give you the flow rate in the "troubleshooting" section.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 01, 2005, 09:49:26 AM
Quote from: "jayryan"
Dammit- so much for the shit I read on CB5...it makes sense in my head at least....speaking of beer....

LOL!  You're allright, JR!  Kudos for trying something different!
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: DenverPat on February 01, 2005, 09:50:49 AM
I normally max boost at 20 to 21 psi. Once in a while I'll spike to 22 or 23. I have yet to put in race gas with this setup. It usually tapers to around 15 or 13 near redline. My car has always boosted differently depending on the weather, so consider these average numbers.
Because I'm having trouble posting the graphs, just click here:
http://forums.audiworld.com/rockymtn/msgs/32563.phtml
then on the small 7507 in blue.  Scroll down to the bottom.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: DenverPat on February 01, 2005, 09:55:48 AM
After searching AW, I have confirmed my stock injectors are the same as the Passat's (210 cc).  That's what I thought all along.  So, how do you explain the numbers now?
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 01, 2005, 09:59:52 AM
The pictureposter links don't work either...

OK, I can believe 210.  I can also believe that you have a 16.32 ceiling.  I could also beleive that, since the euro AEB's have a 21.xx limit, that you could also have the 21.xx limit.

If, indeed, you have 210cc, 16.32, then you have stumbled upon a tuner who knows what he's doing.  Or, you've stumbled upon a tuner that found a way around the 16.32 msec limit, which means you have stumbled upon a tuner who knows what he's doing.  Or, you have carefully and wisely selected a tuner that knows what he's doing.  *bow* *bow, WOW* *bow*
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: DenverPat on February 01, 2005, 10:04:04 AM
Hell, I hope the tuner knows what he's doing.  He was instrumental in the design of the 1.8T!
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 01, 2005, 10:07:04 AM
Quote from: "Denver Pat"
...just click here:
http://forums.audiworld.com/rockymtn/msgs/32563.phtml
then on the small 7507 in blue.  Scroll down to the bottom.

OK got it.  I have the current info.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 01, 2005, 10:19:18 AM
Quote from: "Denver Pat"
Hell, I hope the tuner knows what he's doing.  He was instrumental in the design of the 1.8T!

Actually, the fact that it's taking 21 lbs of boost to get your numbers explains some things.  21 lbs of boost with adequate fuel should easily break 200 WHP.

One way to get around the 210cc/16.32 limitations is to retard the living sh*t out of the timing, and crank the boost way up.

We can test this theory.  Do a 2000-redline WOT run in 3rd gear, logging block 011 and 020.  Go ahead and log block 002 while your at it.  This will give us injector on-time, timing, and individual cylinder knock retard.  We can then compare yours and mine.

That's blocks 002, 011, and 020.  3rd gear WOT from 2000 to redline.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on February 01, 2005, 11:23:49 AM
Just for the record, quoted from Electron Man, this what I was trying to say...it was in my head at least...sorry :roll: I'll have to think of some way to redeem my lost diginity...

"MAF sensor signal and engine rpm are used to calculate a "pseudo-charge pressure" figure which the ECU compares to values in a table. If the air flow number is too high for a given engine speed (an operating condition that must exist under high boost) the ECU gives you a DTC."
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 01, 2005, 01:00:58 PM
Quote from: "jayryan"
Just for the record, quoted from Electron Man, this what I was trying to say...it was in my head at least...sorry :roll: I'll have to think of some way to redeem my lost diginity...

"MAF sensor signal and engine rpm are used to calculate a "pseudo-charge pressure" figure which the ECU compares to values in a table. If the air flow number is too high for a given engine speed (an operating condition that must exist under high boost) the ECU gives you a DTC."


Oh, I get it now.  When you were talking about A/F, you meant Air/Flow, not Air/Fuel Ratio... LOL!!!
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on February 01, 2005, 01:36:59 PM
Yes. I just couldn't make it come out. I'm going to memorize that and just regurgitate. Anyway, sorry about mucking it up...
And yes, in my head limp=fuel cut although I know that technically they're not the same :roll:

...now on to MAF housing mods....

Jennay...
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Chas on February 01, 2005, 04:14:03 PM
I think JR needs to set the Dremel tool down and back away from the car. Slowly...
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on February 01, 2005, 04:36:31 PM
...but the exhaust cut-out....
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: SweetVW on February 01, 2005, 07:12:33 PM
It is all Greek to me.  :?   Good for you JR for taking this on.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 01, 2005, 09:38:42 PM
Quote from: "Chas"
I think JR needs to set the Dremel tool down and back away from the car. Slowly...

I agree... 8O
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on February 02, 2005, 05:38:46 AM
Quote from: "Rusty"
Quote from: "Chas"
I think JR needs to set the Dremel tool down and back away from the car. Slowly...

I agree... 8O


 :twisted: I scare you guys...I find that funny. Muahahahaha!
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 02, 2005, 12:26:19 PM
Quote from: "Rusty"
Quote from: "Denver Pat"
Hell, I hope the tuner knows what he's doing.  He was instrumental in the design of the 1.8T!

Actually, the fact that it's taking 21 lbs of boost to get your numbers explains some things.  21 lbs of boost with adequate fuel should easily break 200 WHP.

One way to get around the 210cc/16.32 limitations is to retard the living sh*t out of the timing, and crank the boost way up.

We can test this theory.  Do a 2000-redline WOT run in 3rd gear, logging block 011 and 020.  Go ahead and log block 002 while your at it.  This will give us injector on-time, timing, and individual cylinder knock retard.  We can then compare yours and mine.

That's blocks 002, 011, and 020.  3rd gear WOT from 2000 to redline.

Pat, I found some data that we logged on your car at Second Creek.  It appears that you do indeed have the 16.32 msec limit, but since the driving was so varied on the track, I can't tell anything about your timing.  So please, do a 3rd gear "dyno" run as outlined above - we'll look at your timing, as well as coolant temp.  Your track coolant temps are about 10C higher than my dyno temps - it'll be interesting to see if your dyno temps match mine.  Cooler coolant = more timing = more power (I have a 180F thermostat and fan switch installed).
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 03, 2005, 10:20:01 AM
Hey, JR - watch things if you drop down to sea level.  You may have to back off a pound or so of boost to prevent overboost conditions.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on February 03, 2005, 11:19:14 AM
Quote from: "Rusty"
Hey, JR - watch things if you drop down to sea level.  You may have to back off a pound or so of boost to prevent overboost conditions.


Thanks. I don't plan have any plans on dropping below SL at this point in time.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Boris on February 09, 2005, 08:10:19 AM
Pat, what about mixture. With that kind of numbers you may be running lean. Rusty?
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: DenverPat on February 09, 2005, 08:15:45 AM
Boris, my air/fuel is near perfect.  Check your email.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Boris on February 09, 2005, 08:58:25 AM
Who's the tuner?
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: DenverPat on February 09, 2005, 09:02:16 AM
It's just an MTM chip.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Chas on February 09, 2005, 09:16:20 PM
So JR, now that you've had some time to let things settle in, how's it running now?
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on February 10, 2005, 06:30:50 AM
It's running really well. I only had a few minor issues, but they've seemed to resolve themselves.

I have no rough idle with the injectors and they run really smooth. I have noticed my fuel milage has gone down, but I expected that with larger injectors.

After first adjusting the MBC, I was running a good 12-13lbs. After about two days, the car would not let me boost past 12 without cutting fuel. That's jarring.

So I re-adjusted and ran the car for about three or four days at which time I noticed my boost falling to about 9-10lbs. I opened it up and found that I had not tightened the MBC down all the way and it had unscrewed a bit.

I readjusted again and locked it down tight. The funny thing is that it's now been running closer to 13-14lbs rather than 12-13. It's been there with no problems for the last week or so. Go figure. I look forward to the Dyno Day to find out exactly what I've gained.

I'm extremely happy with my setup, it's perfect for my driving habits. At some point, I will go a bit futher, but now that I have the boost, I'm going to focus on a couple other areas of my car...ie. finish suspension, body work.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: Rusty on February 10, 2005, 02:59:14 PM
Quote from: "Boris"
Pat, what about mixture. With that kind of numbers you may be running lean. Rusty?

Pat's A/F is great.  That's why I want to see more data from him...
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: DenverPat on February 10, 2005, 03:02:02 PM
Hey man, I don't have a VAG-COM, so I can't do it on my own.  Next time we hook up we can log all you want.  Or, if you really want the info soon, I could hook up with one of the other guys that has one.
Title: MBC and Bigger Injectors = Turbo
Post by: jayryan on February 10, 2005, 03:21:35 PM
Pat, I need to VAG as well...if we score one, we could help each other out.