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Discussion Forums => Off-Topic => Topic started by: copassatguy on January 04, 2008, 06:00:56 PM

Title: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on January 04, 2008, 06:00:56 PM
Will be over very soon...

Warner Bros is now Blu-ray exclusive http://www.timewarner.com/corp/newsroom/pr/0,20812,1700383,00.html (http://www.timewarner.com/corp/newsroom/pr/0,20812,1700383,00.html)

HD DVD will end up being the next generation of beta players. Sorry to those who have HD DVD.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: redline on January 04, 2008, 08:21:08 PM
good, this thing needs to finally end. I have a feeling that this battle will draw longer than we think, but this is a step toward the end.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: Spicoli on January 04, 2008, 11:53:09 PM
I've been anxiously waiting for the battle to end so I can start buying DVDs again.

I've also been hoping it was going to be Bluray.... I'm happy... just Universal or Paramount to switch and then the battle will definitely be over.    I really want to buy the Planet Earth set.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on January 05, 2008, 02:34:38 AM
I doubt the "war" is over. The DRM issues plaguing CD sales and label business models are going to start plaguing the film industry as well. I already have friends who've returned players or bought DVD's they can't play in certain machines. The studios are going to struggle against piracy and follow the RIAA right into the swamp of bad practices and futile efforts making legit, legal copies a pain in the ass to work with. That will make digital copies more appealing and the studio will continue to lose money basing "success" on: physical sales.

Besides it'll be a Sony controlled format. How many other proprietary mediums do we have out there that make compatibility a nightmare? (read: Apple)

With the availability and growing ease of content distribution and digital download and first-fun features, I think the studios are going to have to keep up. The only thing they have going for them is money. Money driven by a) theatres,(our home theatre has better picture, sound and comfort and no cost either) b) DVD sales (how many people are getting shit through torrent now?

In the age of digital, a physical disc is out.

Currently, 1080i is the standard on most consumer products. Compare that to the 4096x2987 motion picture negative this is also considered "4K." "2K" or roughly 2048x1493 is what most if not all your major pictures are shot in. It takes a lot less tape and processing to do it in 2K vs. 4K. However, by the time your favorite flik goes through all the processing and conversion to digital and DVD, the degradation in original quality leaves you looking at a barely distinguishable 1920x1080 picture. This gets compressed to 480 (or 720 if you're lucky) and crammed on to the SD DVD.

Now, where am I going with this? Oh yeah, Red (http://www.red.com). Q1 of last year had Red showing off their new 4K DIGITAL camera at NAMM. Q2/Q3 had them shipping. Peter Jackson also did a short film with it. [Side note=RED is also teaming with a as yet unnamed Japanese maufacturer to produce the first 4K digital movie projector; they kind you find in your local theatre but without the price tag. Initial speculation has it at sub $100K. This puts it in the market for local clubs, organizations, venues and small business owners and could change the field dramatically]

Long story short, you'll be able to shoot with this 4K camera and have better picture quality than your 35mm simply because it doesn't have to go through all the processing. I think to date, current tech short of a Terabyte drive can't hold a substantial amount of 4K quality picture such as film or movie. So maybe a tech will come out that will trump both?

Besides, it's only a matter of time before the local video store sets up an online rental store hosted on the regional/local Comcast/Bresnan/Cox [etc.] INTRAnet where fiber's easy to come by and they start running heavy bandwidth content real fast...like HD movies.

All this to say, I have a damn near HD picture now on SD DVDs. I'm not sold yet. I agree, it's another nail in HDD's coffin but I'm still not sold.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on January 05, 2008, 11:51:37 AM
I doubt the "war" is over. The DRM issues plaguing CD sales and label business models are going to start plaguing the film industry as well. I already have friends who've returned players or bought DVD's they can't play in certain machines. The studios are going to struggle against piracy and follow the RIAA right into the swamp of bad practices and futile efforts making legit, legal copies a pain in the ass to work with. That will make digital copies more appealing and the studio will continue to lose money basing "success" on: physical sales.

Besides it'll be a Sony controlled format. How many other proprietary mediums do we have out there that make compatibility a nightmare? (read: Apple)

With the availability and growing ease of content distribution and digital download and first-fun features, I think the studios are going to have to keep up. The only thing they have going for them is money. Money driven by a) theatres,(our home theatre has better picture, sound and comfort and no cost either) b) DVD sales (how many people are getting shit through torrent now?

In the age of digital, a physical disc is out.

Currently, 1080i is the standard on most consumer products. Compare that to the 4096x2987 motion picture negative this is also considered "4K." "2K" or roughly 2048x1493 is what most if not all your major pictures are shot in. It takes a lot less tape and processing to do it in 2K vs. 4K. However, by the time your favorite flik goes through all the processing and conversion to digital and DVD, the degradation in original quality leaves you looking at a barely distinguishable 1920x1080 picture. This gets compressed to 480 (or 720 if you're lucky) and crammed on to the SD DVD.

Now, where am I going with this? Oh yeah, Red (http://www.red.com). Q1 of last year had Red showing off their new 4K DIGITAL camera at NAMM. Q2/Q3 had them shipping. Peter Jackson also did a short film with it. [Side note=RED is also teaming with a as yet unnamed Japanese maufacturer to produce the first 4K digital movie projector; they kind you find in your local theatre but without the price tag. Initial speculation has it at sub $100K. This puts it in the market for local clubs, organizations, venues and small business owners and could change the field dramatically]

Long story short, you'll be able to shoot with this 4K camera and have better picture quality than your 35mm simply because it doesn't have to go through all the processing. I think to date, current tech short of a Terabyte drive can't hold a substantial amount of 4K quality picture such as film or movie. So maybe a tech will come out that will trump both?

Besides, it's only a matter of time before the local video store sets up an online rental store hosted on the regional/local Comcast/Bresnan/Cox [etc.] INTRAnet where fiber's easy to come by and they start running heavy bandwidth content real fast...like HD movies.

All this to say, I have a damn near HD picture now on SD DVDs. I'm not sold yet. I agree, it's another nail in HDD's coffin but I'm still not sold.

You make some very good points and the whole Red thing is very, very cool but...

Downloading HD movies is not very reasonable right now. Who wants to download 25 - 50 gigs just to watch a movie? I sure as heck do not want to wait, and wait for said movie to finish downloading... it is a lot easier to insert a disc in a player. Plus where are you going to store these downloaded movies? I have around 20 or so Blu movies that fit nicely on a shelf and do not clutter up and slow down my PC. Plus the cost of building an HTPC to enjoy these HD downloads will be a lot more than simply buying a Blu-ray player for $300 - $400 dollars... which I expect to see the price drop even more as Blu is more readily adopted.

Sony does not control the format either by the way... take a look at how many different manufacturers make BR players, and then take a look at how many manufacturers make HD DVD players. If you are still not convinced that it is not only Sony go to http://www.blu-raydisc.com/general_information/Section-14009/Index.html (http://www.blu-raydisc.com/general_information/Section-14009/Index.html) and see who supports Blu.

Sure SD movies look "ok" upconverted but it depends on how old the movie is, how the movie was originally shot, and how good the transfer is from original film reel to SD. Transformers and Star Wars look pretty good upconverted, but they are not even close to the quality of what the picture looks like when watching a true HD movie on my Blu-ray player. I will take some pictures to prove my point next week when I get my Harry Potter movies 1 - 4 on Blu and compare them to the SD versions I have.


Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: 03Indigo on January 05, 2008, 05:02:51 PM
as long as I can still use my DVDs I currently have with what ever format they choose, who cares.  I think the picture I get from a standard DVD is more than fine, but then again, I am blind.  The increased picture is somewhat wasted on me.

They just need to make them so they play old format stuff, the players that is, not the new discs.  And they should also continue to make standard DVDs.  IMHO.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on January 05, 2008, 07:33:08 PM
as long as I can still use my DVDs I currently have with what ever format they choose, who cares.  I think the picture I get from a standard DVD is more than fine, but then again, I am blind.  The increased picture is somewhat wasted on me.

They just need to make them so they play old format stuff, the players that is, not the new discs.  And they should also continue to make standard DVDs.  IMHO.

Both player formats support and play SD DVD... I don't see SD going anywhere for a while.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: MikeWire on January 07, 2008, 12:33:26 PM
x2 on all that JR said.  HD and physical media will eventually take over, but I think there will always be the majority of people who need to have that physical disc in hand or in their collection - I attribute that to human nature.  Plus the major media players have not figured out how to make $$ from digital media yet...so they will keep going down the same road. 

copassatguy: Downloading 25-50Gb of data may seem slow on a 100Mb Ethernet connection, so streaming content is more applicable there.  Plus HD format can be compressed and shrunk down to a downloadable amount - less than 2Gb is ususally acceptable.  Heck I can download an HD movie on my Xbox360 right now if I want to.

In less than 10 years data networks will be gigabit or higher (fiber?), allowing 25-50Gb content to be downloaded much faster than current times.

What this really comes down to is Sony vs. Microsoft due to the platforms the discs are developed on, cost and distribution.  The hardware is really just there to support the type of media format - blue vs. red laser makes no difference, really.  Both formats hold (or could theoretically hold) about the same amount of data in single, dual, triple, quad, and 8 layers (read below). 

This is a little longer than I expected, but I'll add what I know about the whole situation...(facts obtained from: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,117467-page,1/article.html, http://www.blu-raydisc.com/bluray_site.htm, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc_Association, http://www.dvdforum.org/forum.shtml, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_DVD#Digital_rights_management - Wiki is pretty reliable for this info...)

Both sides have associations who support the format:
Blu-ray Disc Association - Hitachi, LG, Panasonic, Pioneer, Philips, Samsung, Sharp, Sony, and Thomson.

DVD forum - (FWIW Sony was one of the founding companies) Hitachi, Ltd., Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd., Mitsubishi Electric Corporation, Pioneer Electronic Corporation, Royal Philips Electronics N.V., Sony Corporation, Thomson, Time Warner Inc., Toshiba Corporation, Victor Company of Japan.

Cost: Currently blue Lasers cost more to manufacture that the red laser, and because of the new format Blu-Ray discs also cost more to produce than HD-DVD.  The reason for this is explained as a new technology expense, and costs will decrease as production goes up.

Dev Platforms:
Sony Blu-Ray is developed using Java, where Microsoft uses HDi which is a mix of HTML, CSS, XML (XML, XSL-FO, XPath, ECMAScript) and others that are already widely used, so HD-DVD will be an easier transition for web developers and others with little DVD development experience. Blu-ray Disc content is authored using either a scripting environment, or a Java-based platform. DVD's use pre-rendered MPEG segments, pictures, and simple navigation which is much more limited.

Disc Capacity:
Blu-Ray - Single Layer holds ~25GB, Dual layer holds ~50GB, and the rumored quad layer holds ~100GB, and a bigger rumor that an 8 layer 200GB disc has been tested and is possible.
HD-DVD - Single Layer (single sided) holds 15GB, Dual Layer (single sided) holds 30GB, Triple Layer (single sided) holds ~51GB.  Double those values for double sided discs.

Why HD-DVD will win the "format war":...in my opinion...
Both formats have support of major manufacturers and movie labels and have similar A/V qualities, so it comes down to a few things I think HD-DVD has over Blu-Ray:

1. Cost - The main argument for Blu-Ray is that they hold more information on one disc because there is less space between bits on the Blu-Ray disc. But, there is no reason to go to Blue lasers now because 3 layer HD-DVD will hold 51GB.  Consumers will be able to get their hands on HD-DVD players because they will be cheaper and do the same thing, if not more, than Blu-Ray.  So, there will be more players on the market, which will increase the demand and sales of HD-DVD media. It also costs more to buy into the development, marketing, and production of Blu-Ray...it even costs anywhere from $3000 - $50000 annually just to be in the Blu-ray Disc Association.  These costs will be pushed down to the consumer and/or end user.

2. Development (more widely adopted platform) - Developers will be able to make more interactive, higher quality, easy to produce HD-DVD menus, navigation, and movie segments with HDi.  Also HD-DVD is not a proprietary media format - consider Sony's previous media (mini-disc, PSP, BetaMax - they pretty much all much failed...I still love my PSP tho).  HD-DVD content will be better looking, easier to use, easier to produce and develop, and overall just cooler than Java based Blu-Ray. 
   
3. Disc Capacity - Both have around 50GB capacity with the ability to add more layers for more content.  In doing research I did find some evidence that a 4 layer 100GB and an 8 layer 200GB Blu-Ray disc could happen.  So, it currently looks like Blu-Ray has more storage potential.  I argue that more storage space is like renting a bigger storage area:  the bigger area the more you pay, but will you utilize the amount of storage you paid for?  Probably not.  Or at least not today, so it could be that Blu-Ray storage capacity may be ahead of it's time. 
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: evil_O on January 07, 2008, 01:19:44 PM
I recently got laid up with a good injury.  One that put me on the couch for a number of hours/days/weeks/months - against my will of course.  With that in mind I went out looking for something that would keep me entertained.  I looked at the BR players anddecided on a PS3.  It just made sense since a standalone player is about the same cost - with PS3 I got to try gaming for the first time and it was essentially "free."

I love the PS3/BR.  It still plays DVDs (even upconverts) and at last read I will have a software upgrade soon that will allow me to play DivX - not that I am downloading movies at this point.

Blockbuster has a good selection and I am thinking about joining NetFlix (as their library is extensive).

So... in the end, during this "war" I am still enjoying HD and playing some kick a$$ first person shooter games :D 

Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on January 07, 2008, 01:29:23 PM
I recently got laid up with a good injury.

Shot yerself again huh?  ;D

I will say that it is a bit different on the production side of things. That also plays a huge role in the development and support of a given format. I speak mostly from that end. And in this world, you have two main formats to shoot too: DVCPRO HD and HDV. Sony and Panasonic lead the charge here. This does trickle down to the consumer level.

Anyway, enough of my rambling.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: evil_O on January 07, 2008, 01:39:27 PM
Shot yerself again huh?  ;D

Yea... I figure I will eventually learn not to point it at myself when unloading.

Weird thing about the PS3 is that I have never been any kind of a gamer... and since I bought this thing I have beat Resistance: Fall of Man and Call for Duty.  I am working on Ghost Recon 4 now.  This games are a kick in the butt.  And to play them on a 42" HiDef TV at 720p or greater is amazing.  It has truly sucked me in.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on January 07, 2008, 02:44:49 PM
This article brings up a good point of people not knowing what to buy so they don't buy anything. The confusion of the format war  :-\
Warner: DVD format war hurt movie sales (http://bigtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/01/07/warner-dvd-format-war-was-hurting-movie-sales/?source=yahoo_quote)
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on January 07, 2008, 05:08:42 PM

Both formats have support of major manufacturers and movie labels and have similar A/V qualities, so it comes down to a few things I think HD-DVD has over Blu-Ray:

1. Cost - The main argument for Blu-Ray is that they hold more information on one disc because there is less space between bits on the Blu-Ray disc. But, there is no reason to go to Blue lasers now because 3 layer HD-DVD will hold 51GB.  Consumers will be able to get their hands on HD-DVD players because they will be cheaper and do the same thing, if not more, than Blu-Ray.  So, there will be more players on the market, which will increase the demand and sales of HD-DVD media. It also costs more to buy into the development, marketing, and production of Blu-Ray...it even costs anywhere from $3000 - $50000 annually just to be in the Blu-ray Disc Association.  These costs will be pushed down to the consumer and/or end user.

There is no such thing as a 51GB HD DVD disk... it failed, plus it would be incompatible with current HD DVD players. The cheaper HD DVD players are 1080i and Toshiba is taking a loss for each one soldhttp://gizmodo.com/gadgets/notag/every-99-hd-dvd-player-losing-500-319172.php (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/notag/every-99-hd-dvd-player-losing-500-319172.php). HD DVD only has Universal and Paramount for studio support (Warner till May 08). There is no way that they can survive... I am willing to bet that Universal will soon be providing content to Blu by becoming format neutral.

Quote
2. Development (more widely adopted platform) - Developers will be able to make more interactive, higher quality, easy to produce HD-DVD menus, navigation, and movie segments with HDi.  Also HD-DVD is not a proprietary media format - consider Sony's previous media (mini-disc, PSP, BetaMax - they pretty much all much failed...I still love my PSP tho).  HD-DVD content will be better looking, easier to use, easier to produce and develop, and overall just cooler than Java based Blu-Ray.

Blu is not Sony's format (broken record)... Both have the same features by the way, but Blu has more bandwidth on disc so it should be better quality.
   
Quote
3. Disc Capacity - Both have around 50GB capacity with the ability to add more layers for more content.  In doing research I did find some evidence that a 4 layer 100GB and an 8 layer 200GB Blu-Ray disc could happen.  So, it currently looks like Blu-Ray has more storage potential.  I argue that more storage space is like renting a bigger storage area:  the bigger area the more you pay, but will you utilize the amount of storage you paid for?  Probably not.  Or at least not today, so it could be that Blu-Ray storage capacity may be ahead of it's time. 

No 51GB disc...

They both use the same video codecs and depending how much you compress the video (for HD DVD) they could both have the same audio. There is a lot of misinformation on the web right now about both formats.

I look forward to debating this with you some more  :)

This article brings up a good point of people not knowing what to buy so they don't buy anything. The confusion of the format war  :-\
Warner: DVD format war hurt movie sales (http://bigtech.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2008/01/07/warner-dvd-format-war-was-hurting-movie-sales/?source=yahoo_quote)

I would like to think that they are trying to help end the war and went Blu in order to bring about an end... obviously they also think Blu will win. ;)
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on January 08, 2008, 07:30:06 AM
I would like to think that they are trying to help end the war and went Blu in order to bring about an end... obviously they also think Blu will win. ;)

Oh they don't care about the format war. They want to make their money.

If Panasonic can charge $1700 for a P2 card that only holds 16GB, that will only work with Panasonic equipment and proprietary codecs and readers, they will. It's all about the money. It's a delusion to believe they'll ever think about the consumer or the professional producer.

Company A and company B both developed HD DVD burning technology from two different directions. Company A wants their technology to sell better than company B and vice versa. There's no thought to the consumer at all.

The distributors (Warner, Sony [distribution], Universal, Paramount, etc.] are secondary. The more distributors that go with a given company (blu/HD) they better for that company that developed the technology.

Anyway, I'll bet this will go the way of the laser disc anyway.  ;D

EDIT: Oh yeah, I have it straight from the editor's (film) mouth that Iron Man is being shot in HD.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on January 08, 2008, 09:43:06 AM
Ooo...ooo!! Just out!
Paramount Poised to Drop HD-DVD for Blu (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/dc409afa-bd75-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2Fdc409afa-bd75-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac.html%3Fnclick_check%3D1&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdforindies.com%2F2008%2F01%2Fwow-boom-done-blu-ray-is-going-to-win.html&nclick_check=1)

Also announced: Applies Blu DVD recorder/player available soon, well, rumoured anyway   :D God news for the indy media producer like me!

That was quick. ;D
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on January 08, 2008, 09:47:24 AM
Oh they don't care about the format war. They want to make their money.

If Panasonic can charge $1700 for a P2 card that only holds 16GB, that will only work with Panasonic equipment and proprietary codecs and readers, they will. It's all about the money. It's a delusion to believe they'll ever think about the consumer or the professional producer.

Company A and company B both developed HD DVD burning technology from two different directions. Company A wants their technology to sell better than company B and vice versa. There's no thought to the consumer at all.

The distributors (Warner, Sony [distribution], Universal, Paramount, etc.] are secondary. The more distributors that go with a given company (blu/HD) they better for that company that developed the technology.

Anyway, I'll bet this will go the way of the laser disc anyway.  ;D

EDIT: Oh yeah, I have it straight from the editor's (film) mouth that Iron Man is being shot in HD.

I agree... they are only in it for the money and could care less about the consumer.


I was never a fan of Iron Man so it will be a rental for me... I wonder how many films now are being shot in HD. I am really looking forward to Dark Knight though.

Ooo...ooo!! Just out!
Paramount Poised to Drop HD-DVD for Blu (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/dc409afa-bd75-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2Fdc409afa-bd75-11dc-b7e6-0000779fd2ac.html%3Fnclick_check%3D1&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdforindies.com%2F2008%2F01%2Fwow-boom-done-blu-ray-is-going-to-win.html&nclick_check=1)

Also announced: Applies Blu DVD recorder/player available soon :P

That was quick. ;D

The sooner the better... HD DVDead the look and sound of dust collecting in your basement.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on January 08, 2008, 09:55:32 AM
I was never a fan of Iron Man so it will be a rental for me... I wonder how many films now are being shot in HD. I am really looking forward to Dark Knight though.

Not many. Hollywood's still trying to figure out a good tapeless workflow. A lot of them are OG's and are set in their ways. In this Iron Man, is being shot in 35mm due to the lens distortion from some of the aerial and inside suit stuff. All of their offline editing is being done in HD.

From what I understand, the 35mm will be converted to digital for the online editing and remain thus. The whole process appears to kill an entire set of film transfers...I think.

Hollywood is very confusing sometimes.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: Spicoli on January 08, 2008, 10:23:32 AM
Film itself is expense.  For most hollywood movies they spend 100k+ just on film alone.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on January 08, 2008, 11:25:22 AM
Here's a good read concerning the whole format war... http://digitalbits.com/#mytwocents (http://digitalbits.com/#mytwocents)

(http://mikespeaksout.blogs.com/mikespeaksout/images/fat_lady_sings.jpg)
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on January 08, 2008, 11:43:50 AM
But don't get too excited about 1080:

From Reduser.net:
"We are very happy to hear Panasonic and Sony announce their 4K displays at CES today. That allows us to finally announce that RED has been developing for release a 4K delivery system.

We have been committed to 4K from day one. It has always been our vision to see 4K in the home as well as on the big screen. We always believed that 1080P was a stop-gap along the way to 4K.

We will be announcing details of the RED 4K Delivery system at NAB in April.

Jim"
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on January 08, 2008, 12:58:30 PM
But don't get too excited about 1080:

From Reduser.net:
"We are very happy to hear Panasonic and Sony announce their 4K displays at CES today. That allows us to finally announce that RED has been developing for release a 4K delivery system.

We have been committed to 4K from day one. It has always been our vision to see 4K in the home as well as on the big screen. We always believed that 1080P was a stop-gap along the way to 4K.

We will be announcing details of the RED 4K Delivery system at NAB in April.

Jim"

It will take a little while for it be adopted the masses but I am all for new tech  :D
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: hotani on January 08, 2008, 01:03:11 PM
I like that 150" 4k display (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/big-tv-watch/holy-crap-first-150inch-lifescreen-plasma-photos-341633.php)!

But sheesh, let's confuse consumers more by calling it "4k" giving the impression that this compares to "1080" or "1k + 80" vertical pixels. The "4k" is really 2000 vertical pixels by 4000 horizontal. An increase of 6 megapixels is plenty impressive, but we're not really moving from 1080 to 4000 here (which would be 28 megapixels--in case you were wondering).

I'm ready to hook up my computer to one of those... talk about desktop real estate. :-*
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on January 08, 2008, 01:37:25 PM
I like that 150" 4k display (http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/big-tv-watch/holy-crap-first-150inch-lifescreen-plasma-photos-341633.php)!

But sheesh, let's confuse consumers more by calling it "4k" giving the impression that this compares to "1080" or "1k + 80" vertical pixels. The "4k" is really 2000 vertical pixels by 4000 horizontal. An increase of 6 megapixels is plenty impressive, but we're not really moving from 1080 to 4000 here (which would be 28 megapixels--in case you were wondering).

I'm ready to hook up my computer to one of those... talk about desktop real estate. :-*

Yeah, sorry about that. It's more production speak than consumer speak.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: hotani on January 08, 2008, 01:46:40 PM
I'm sure it will filter through to consumers though. Already I've seen references to "4k" when describing the huge panasonic display linked above.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on January 08, 2008, 02:14:39 PM
That 150" plasma is sweet... It was on G4 last night.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on January 08, 2008, 03:07:49 PM
Haha! They call it "Advanced" High Definition. *shakes head* So now we'll have "AHDTV"
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: MikeWire on January 08, 2008, 03:09:19 PM
I figured you were a G4 guy. :P

I stopped watching that channel when they changed from TechTV to the current Axe bodyspray (insert fake orgasm sound...), every other line sexual innuendo (Kevin Pereria), WTF is "Attack of the Show"??!?!, "I'm a geek but i'm cool"...content.

Anyway...I lov3d TechTV, and was really disappointed when they went to the adolescent programming.  Maybe it's changed since I tuned in last.

With the drop of Paramount I will hold off buying the HD-DVD player for my 360  ;D

Might as well just go buy a PS3 too... :-\

(http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/12/format-trains.jpg)
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/the-state-of-hd-dvd/the-state-of-hd-dvd-330684.php
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on January 08, 2008, 03:24:53 PM
I figured you were a G4 guy. :P

I stopped watching that channel when they changed from TechTV to the current Axe bodyspray (insert fake orgasm sound...), every other line sexual innuendo (Kevin Pereria), WTF is "Attack of the Show"??!?!, "I'm a geek but i'm cool"...content.

Anyway...I lov3d TechTV, and was really disappointed when they went to the adolescent programming.  Maybe it's changed since I tuned in last.

With the drop of Paramount I will hold off buying the HD-DVD player for my 360  ;D

Might as well just go buy a PS3 too... :-\

(http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/12/format-trains.jpg)
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/the-state-of-hd-dvd/the-state-of-hd-dvd-330684.php

Wow. Tell us how you REALLY feel about G4. LOL
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: MikeWire on January 08, 2008, 03:31:49 PM
 ;D

Really, no you don't want to hear my drivel.  :-[

You have that channel on right now don't you  :D

Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on January 08, 2008, 03:48:26 PM
I figured you were a G4 guy. :P

I stopped watching that channel when they changed from TechTV to the current Axe bodyspray (insert fake orgasm sound...), every other line sexual innuendo (Kevin Pereria), WTF is "Attack of the Show"??!?!, "I'm a geek but i'm cool"...content.

Anyway...I lov3d TechTV, and was really disappointed when they went to the adolescent programming.  Maybe it's changed since I tuned in last.

With the drop of Paramount I will hold off buying the HD-DVD player for my 360  ;D

Might as well just go buy a PS3 too... :-\

(http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/12/format-trains.jpg)
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/the-state-of-hd-dvd/the-state-of-hd-dvd-330684.php

I loved tech TV... hate G4. Only watched it cause they were airing CES 2008...

and yes come join the DARK SIDE  ;)
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on January 08, 2008, 03:50:42 PM
Haha! They call it "Advanced" High Definition. *shakes head* So now we'll have "AHDTV"

What's next Advanced Superior Source High Definition... ASSHDTV... ok maybe stretching it a little but I couldn't help myself  ;D
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: MikeWire on January 09, 2008, 04:15:21 PM
I loved tech TV... hate G4. Only watched it cause they were airing CES 2008...

and yes come join the DARK SIDE  ;)

Right on, there are ramblings of the Blu-Ray working with the XB360.  DARK SIDE!

FWIW if you liked TechTV then check out http://www.revision3.com - Kevin Rose, Leo, Martin etc all jumped over there and have "podcasts" or videos covering all kind of tech topics. 
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on January 09, 2008, 08:08:47 PM
Right on, there are ramblings of the Blu-Ray working with the XB360.  DARK SIDE!

FWIW if you liked TechTV then check out http://www.revision3.com - Kevin Rose, Leo, Martin etc all jumped over there and have "podcasts" or videos covering all kind of tech topics. 

Sweet nice find... if you got a PS3 you would be able to enjoy exclusives on both systems.  ;)
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: MikeWire on January 10, 2008, 04:16:57 PM
 :D  The "war" is truly over.  Expect Blu-Ray to take over all (Sony execs rejoyce!) :P

Porn arrives on Blu-Ray - another nail in the HD-DVD coffin (http://"http://www.t3.com/news/blu-ray-porn?=35064")

Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: MikeWire on January 10, 2008, 04:17:26 PM
darn double post
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: ianacole on January 11, 2008, 09:05:20 AM
:D  The "war" is truly over.  Expect Blu-Ray to take over all (Sony execs rejoyce!) :P

Porn arrives on Blu-Ray - another nail in the HD-DVD coffin (http://"http://www.t3.com/news/blu-ray-porn?=35064")



I'm sold!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: Spicoli on January 11, 2008, 01:46:53 PM
Now the problem is the current Bluray players won't be able to play the future Bluray discs...

... I have heard that most of the companies are releasing new players here soon though.
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on January 12, 2008, 02:11:45 AM
Now the problem is the current Bluray players won't be able to play the future Bluray discs...

... I have heard that most of the companies are releasing new players here soon though.

That's not entirely true... current players will play the movies just not some of the special features like PIP, but I could care less about hearing why the director shot a scene a particular way while the scene is playing. If you get a PS3 as your Blu-ray player you will be set though because it will be able to play all current and future discs via firmware updates... plus it plays games, has the ability to play music and movies that are streamed from your PC (or Mac) and any pictures as well. Oh and it will also have DVR capabilities in the near future.   
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on January 21, 2008, 09:15:08 AM
Hey, I've been meaning to post this for a while now: here's a good read on the pro-film  process. If you want a little more of the production side of the process your favorite blockbuster [or not] gets from location to your DVD player. :)

On Editing Stations and Stuff (http://216.69.187.164/pp_archive/MCAI_11_Film.htm)
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: MikeWire on February 11, 2008, 02:53:44 PM
I just got a notice from Netflix telling me that they were only going to support Blu-Ray...

Guess I'm going to go get a PS3!
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: evil_O on February 12, 2008, 05:34:12 PM
Yep.  We have netflix and like it so far.  We have the blueray default set when selecting our movies.  I think you will like the PS3 :D
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: copassatguy on February 19, 2008, 10:20:32 AM
It's over folks!!! Toshiba has thrown in the towel... http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/feb2008/gb20080219_177279.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_businessweek+exclusives (http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/feb2008/gb20080219_177279.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_businessweek+exclusives)

Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on February 29, 2008, 09:22:51 AM
Here's a good inside read on what's next:

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/mcurtis/story/blu_ray_won_whats_next_for/ (http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/mcurtis/story/blu_ray_won_whats_next_for/)
Title: Re: The High Def Format War
Post by: jayryan on March 06, 2008, 03:29:33 PM
If you're an uber-techy like myself you'll dig some of this:

What’s in a Pixel? Taken from Tapeless Workflow, Real Resolution, and Rolling Out D-Cinema (http://www.studiodaily.com/main/news/9156.html)

Canon’s Larry Thorpe and Panavision’s John Galt made an effective tag team on the subject of digital cinema resolution — and why current ideas about the “resolution” of any given camera are at best sketchy and at worst misleading. Thorpe kicked off the session by noting that, while “pixels are synonymous with resolution,” it’s a mistake to think that you can measure a camera’s resolution by simply counting the number of pixels it outputs.

“More pixels do not necessarily create more resolution,” declared Galt, “but can harm overall image performance.” To explain, he recalled "a big argument with Japan" from his tenure as project leader on the group that developed the Panavision Genesis. “I argued vociferously for 1920x1080 RGB,” Galt said. “They were keen on building a 4K camera — which would have been one of the UHD 3840x2160 versions [proposed by NHK]. The main reason we didn’t do that is the pixel would get so small we’d lose two stops of sensitivity and two stops of dynamic range.” That’s because the size of individual pixels on a 35mm imager determines those stats — bigger is better because bigger photosensors can capture more light.

Galt then mounted an argument for MTF (modulation transfer function) — cascaded across all components in an imaging system — as the single best measurement of “system resolution.” Determining the resolution of a film-based system, for instance, would require accounting for the MTF of a camera’s lens, the film negative, the interpositive, the internegative, the print, and the lens in the projector. The weakest link in that chain can have a dramatic detrimental effect on the final quality of an image. “Even if each of those parameters has a 90 percent MTF, the final system is only 53. If each parameter is 90 percent except for one parameter that is 60, the final will be 35 percent.

“We have fallen into this trap of defining cameras in the context of 1K, 2K, 4K or megapixels,” Galt continued. “It’s only one parameter. The system MTF measurement is the only way to characterize a complete system. If the MTF is less than 35 or 40 percent, the image is going to be out of focus.”

A working knowledge of MTF factors in a given system can lead to some important conclusions, Galt said. For instance, he estimated that a “good Nikkor lens” has an MTF of only about 30 percent at 4K resolution. “If you’re scanning film at 4K — unless you have extraordinary scanning optics — you’re wasting money,” he said.

Thorpe said camera design involves a “fundamental compromise between MTF, sharpness and aliasing,” but noted that much of the pertinent information about a camera’s resolution — the designers’ use of optical or electrical low-pass filters to tweak the captured image or the sensor’s “fill factor” (the percentage of an imaging pixel that is actually light-sensitive rather than taken up by circuitry) — is rarely published by manufacturers. He recommended the “MTF profile” as an important camera metric, suggesting that four MTF measurements be taken, at 200, 400, 600, and 800 lines of resolution, to create an accurate profile of a given camera.