Rocky Mountain Club B5

Discussion Forums => Modifications => Topic started by: methodicalmayhem on July 17, 2008, 08:50:13 PM

Title: Educate me on...
Post by: methodicalmayhem on July 17, 2008, 08:50:13 PM
how this type of set up would beneficial to me other than the obvious:

-OEM brakes for a 20th/337/GLI. They are OEM loaded calipers and carriers with "premium OE brake pads" and 12.3" OEM vented rotors.

-TT OEM rear brakes that fit standard 1.8t rear hubs. They are essentially that same as the 20th/337/GLI setup with OEM 10.1" rotors and OEM calipers.

Brakes are the next big mod for me to do and though I would love to go BBK I cannot justify the expense let alone know if they will work with the wheels (dont want to purchase and then have them not work). So the next best thing is to go with a bigger OEM set up. Give me the knowledge.
Title: Re: Educate me on...
Post by: 03Indigo on July 17, 2008, 09:56:18 PM
BBK usually come with higher performance  pads.  Unless you are tracking you car, sometimes it is just for bling over performance.

I have stock brakes on my car, but have upgraded the rotor to a better material, using Zimmerman drilled/slotted and cadmium plated rotors.  Chryo treated rotors have been proven to be very strong as well.  I also switched to a ceramic pad.  This provides amazing stopping power on the street application with zero noise and greatly reduced brake dust.  I am using OEM brake lines as with Stainless Steel lines, they eliminate some of the modulation in the brakes, making them very touchy.  I just bled the brakes and have Motul fluid in there.

OK, slightly increasing your rotor size helps to keep the brake cooler while increasing bite at the same time.  But this also depends on the rotor material and the pad material.  Racing or high performance pads will make noise, that is their nature....but they won't necessarily stop faster as they work best when at operating temp, and it is nearly impossible to get a race or track pad up to temp in daily driving.  Most BBK come with increased temp pads, and most people can not get them up to temp for max performance.  If you do a lot of spirited canyon driving, increased performance pads would be good, as you will have a pad that is resistant to fade because it has a higher operating temp.

So, going the route you have listed is a great option, you will increase the resistance to fade with a larger rotor, have more bite overall.  Just put some serious thought into the brand of rotor and pads you install, and bleed the brakes if you have not done that.

Brands of rotors that are good, or at least the ones I like and have had great performance with
Power Slot
Zimmerman
Brembo
DBA

Brands of pads that I like
Ferodo
Axxis
PBR Ceramic

Most oem set ups with better biting rotors and pads can out perform BBKs if put together right, they can also resist fade just as well if you increase your pad operating temps.  Come down to choice of bling over performance for a daily driver.  I am the king of bling, but when it comes to brakes, I want performance.

The overall difference in increasing the size of our set up will be minimal, but you can greatly increase the overall performance of either set up with well matched rotors and pads that best suit your driving style.
Title: Re: Educate me on...
Post by: RobD on July 18, 2008, 05:43:41 AM
Jon

Nice write up.  I am looking at the same upgrade for Christy's New beetle.  I already have the front Brembo rotors, calliper carriers, stainless lines and fluid.  I am working on the pad selection right now and based on what i have read as well as my previous experiences I am leaning toward the Hawk HPS pads.  I am only doing the front right now since this will give me the most banfg for the buck.  When i find a sweet deal on vortex for the rear set-up i will pop for that.  Depending on the mods and how you plan on driving the rear upgrade is optional.

One other point to consider is the unsprung weight factor.  By going bigger you add weight which slows acceleration.  If you are doing the basic upgrades on the engine (chip/exhaust etc) then this front brake upgrade would make sense.  If still stock then maybe divert your brake money into engine upgrades first then you can at the minimum add better brakes pads and the stainless lines for a better braking response.

Now if i could just get Randy to email or call me back I would get this stuff (and other stuff...rear sway/tip etc)done!  ;) Randy????......


Rob 
Title: Re: Educate me on...
Post by: 03Indigo on July 18, 2008, 06:59:00 AM
Rob, consider the Hawk Ceramics for her car, They are top notch pads, low on dust, and amazing bite.  They make the Hawk Ceramics for the MINI, but I am a huge fan of PBR pads, had them an the allroad as well.


Title: Re: Educate me on...
Post by: SweetVW on July 18, 2008, 10:35:49 AM
I recently did the 337's rotors and pads.  Ecs Tuning sent me Brembo rotors for the fronts and Zimmerman rotors for the rears.  I am using PBR ceramics all the way around.  They have performed wonderfully, though every once in a while they squeak.  But little to no dust comes out of them.
Title: Re: Educate me on...
Post by: 92UrS4 on July 18, 2008, 10:44:20 AM
As mentioned by Jon and others. I have a Porsche BBK with A8 rotors and Mintex Reds. This was how I bought the car. Like the BBK as it works better than the stock setup, but for a DD, it's not the greatest.

In the winter they it is so loud, summer is not so bad, but they can be noisy (squeaky) when they are cold.

I think a little larger OEM style setup is not only practical, but the increased stopping power will be beneficial for the spirited drives and for the hopefully future track days.

Jon listed some great options for pads and rotors, I say avoid Mintex pads at all costs, I hate em. I had some past experience with the PBR Ceramics and liked them.
Title: Re: Educate me on...
Post by: methodicalmayhem on July 18, 2008, 05:16:31 PM
Thanks for the responses, they are a lot better than some of the others I have received on other boards. I am looking more for performance than bling and since I have never tracked my car, nor plan to, BBK's are not worth it for me.

One other point to consider is the unsprung weight factor.  By going bigger you add weight which slows acceleration.  If you are doing the basic upgrades on the engine (chip/exhaust etc) then this front brake upgrade would make sense.  If still stock then maybe divert your brake money into engine upgrades first then you can at the minimum add better brakes pads and the stainless lines for a better braking response.

I got a chuckle out of this since I have gone almost as far as I can with the power upgrades at the current moment (check out my post in member rides for details).
Title: Re: Educate me on...
Post by: Eric18T on July 18, 2008, 06:01:46 PM
a good set of oem sized rotors w/ ferrodo ds2500's will provide more braking than anyone really needs on the street. But the solid brake feel of the ferrodo's is nice to have. If you want less dust the Carbotech Bobcats are very low dust and have more bite than the hawk ceramics and a tad more hawk hps's.

I need to swap out my ferrodo's and put the carbotechs back in for the street to cut down on the dust. my ferrodo's made a ton of dust at the track.
Title: Re: Educate me on...
Post by: 03Indigo on July 19, 2008, 07:41:54 AM
Eric, I got better braking on the street from my PBR Ceramics than the DS2500's.  For performance, and the fact that he does not track the car, I think a nice Ceramic pad would suite him best.

Also, the carbotech's had a ton on noise on my MINI, not sure about other cars, but they were too aggressive and noisy.  They lasted a month, and swapped for the Ferodo's.  Also, EBC Green pads suck, stay away from EBC, I have seen them separate from their backing on many different compounds, red, green, yellow, etc.

I would go hawk or PBR Ceramic for what you are describing you want, performance without a plan to track the car....you want quick bite without high temps...what you get in city driving.
Title: Re: Educate me on...
Post by: Eric18T on July 19, 2008, 11:07:16 AM
Eric, I got better braking on the street from my PBR Ceramics than the DS2500's.  For performance, and the fact that he does not track the car, I think a nice Ceramic pad would suite him best.

Also, the carbotech's had a ton on noise on my MINI, not sure about other cars, but they were too aggressive and noisy.  They lasted a month, and swapped for the Ferodo's.  Also, EBC Green pads suck, stay away from EBC, I have seen them separate from their backing on many different compounds, red, green, yellow, etc.

I would go hawk or PBR Ceramic for what you are describing you want, performance without a plan to track the car....you want quick bite without high temps...what you get in city driving.

Intersting. I get great daily driver initial bite out of the ferrrodo 2500's but i just don't like the dust. They have less dust than the axxis ultimates (been told they are the same as pbr ceramics). I though the axxis ultimates had great intial bite but were not as progressive as some other pads. They also had a weird feeling in the rain.

I tried EBC greens once and i completly aggree with you. they suck.

My carbotech's are pretty quiet. they only time they get any noise is when they are dirty (dust build up). If i wash the wheels & indirecty the breaks or blow them out with the air nozzle they are quiet.

I think alot of it depends on personal preference and the car. every driver style will result in different feedback on pads.
Title: Re: Educate me on...
Post by: gragravar on July 19, 2008, 03:48:46 PM
I am running a Stasis BBK on my car.  While I do like the bling, I have seen some added benefits as well.  Despite the rotors being larger, they were also lighter than stock so I saw an improvement in acceleration from stock.  I have also seen a decrease in braking distances and MUCH less fade.  the allroad is a heavy car and after a short time of hard driving (street and definately track) the brakes would be shot.  that just doesnt happen any more.

If you are thinking BBK, do pay attention to the templates that the vendors provide.  print them and cut them out then put them inside one of your wheels to see if they fit.  this will save you tons of headache later if you buy one that doesn't fit.

Also FWIW, if you are sticking with a mostly stock setup, I have found pagid pads to be really good at getting the car stopped, even if they are pretty dusty.

Title: Re: Educate me on...
Post by: methodicalmayhem on July 19, 2008, 11:26:02 PM
So the vibe I am getting is that this set up with the right pads would be well worth doing?
Title: Re: Educate me on...
Post by: 03Indigo on July 20, 2008, 07:40:18 AM
yup.